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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;Black Mirror&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by CrashSite</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-2/?recent=358697#post=358697</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from octochris</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

Think the series is his doing, but episode three had a different writer at least.

Episode three seemed to have this view, maybe not of ludditry, but at least the desirability of critical analysis in transhumanism. The off-hand comment at the table of "I've heard hookers sometimes remove them" seems to try to show the absurdity of shared reliance -- the same concept as "if everyone advertised it would have the same effect as nobody advertising" -- an effort to stay in the bounds of societal norms and professional enhancement.

The main character seemed to be conflicted between knowing the truth and acting upon it, note that he had to get drunk to resort to physical violence. This seemed again to be a comment on failure to release from social acceptability.

Maybe not ludditry, but it feels like it was about the importance of critically analysing transhumanism rather than anything else.</blockquote>

I see the third one as a continuation of the overall theme, the retention of the things that take us human. The first shows loss of empathy, second is a loss of (not quite sure, you could go for a couple of things) intellectual stimulation, relationships, faith in humanity, the third is jarring I think as it is a loss of a negative, something that makes us human, but is a flaw, the loss of forgetting. The protagonist in the third might have been more happy without knowing and they might have worked past it. 

I think you might be right about the trans-human aspect, as it keeps in theme with the other two.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:40:19 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Dr. Chris</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-2/?recent=358697#post=358694</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from CrashSite</i>
		<blockquote>Also I think in Episode three Brooker is mentioned in the credits and was marketed as his work, so seems likely he would be involved. I also don't think that the last has Luddite views, as Brooker is defiantly not one, I feel it is trying to be a less practical comment on society and a more philosophical one. If you take it as showing the importance of forgetting then it is a quite interesting concept. On the other hand the main character felt badly developed, as at first he seemed to be a paranoid obsessive, but in the end of was proven right, with the final scene showing him regaining his humanity, eg the ability to forget and not go over every memory in the smallest detail.</blockquote>

Think the series is his doing, but episode three had a different writer at least.

Episode three seemed to have this view, maybe not of ludditry, but at least the desirability of critical analysis in transhumanism. The off-hand comment at the table of "I've heard hookers sometimes remove them" seems to try to show the absurdity of shared reliance -- the same concept as "if everyone advertised it would have the same effect as nobody advertising" -- an effort to stay in the bounds of societal norms and professional enhancement.

The main character seemed to be conflicted between knowing the truth and acting upon it, note that he had to get drunk to resort to physical violence. This seemed again to be a comment on failure to release from social acceptability.

Maybe not ludditry, but it feels like it was about the importance of critically analysing transhumanism rather than anything else.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:15:05 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CrashSite</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-2/?recent=358697#post=358690</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from skeej</i>
		<blockquote>Funny that you adressed the sexuality as leading theme in all 3 episodes, I noticed that too CrashSite. I have to agree with Chris about episode 1, it was in itself as sensationalist as the things it tried to condemn, and at times felt really contrived trying to twist it's plot into making some weak points that are not really discussed further. Episode 1 and 2 get a lot of ideas from the Marxist theory of alienation, and continuations of that matter by Guy Debord  (Society of the Spectacle). Interesting, and very well put to screen, but, as previously said, the concepts arent really explored further than just "pointing things out".

Episode 3 wandered around and ultimately couldn't decide on a core statement to make. Ultimately it was just a story of a mad man, as the rest of society seemed to function fine with this seemingly out-of-place piece of technology. Would type more but no time now ;D 

d2m, you were saying? ;D</blockquote>

Hmm, perhaps the first is self-reflecting, we are doing the same as those in the drama, watching sensational screens.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:21:42 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CrashSite</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358689</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from octochris</i>
		<blockquote>It should be mentioned that Brooker didn't have anything to do with episode 3, I believe.

In my opinion the first episode was pretty weak. It seemed to be exploring hypocritical expectations and voyeurism, but ultimately degraded into juvenile sniggers and cliché plotlines.

The second episode was fantastic, and in my opinion was the best by far. So many concepts explored. First of all, the whole plot revolves around people powering their own existence. It seems very removed from reality, but in fact, this is a fair representation of reality, where money is the ultimate carrot on a stick, ultimately producing exportable and unrevolutionary products and saleables rather than new ideas and concepts. Lots of other stuff, too, but if I go into it all I'll probably end up making this a page long post (misanthropy, hypocrisy, luck and chance, whether money is a true measure of success, love, watered-down commercialism, helplessness, amongst other concepts). One thing I never heard mentioned when discussing it with people afterwards is this idea that he is acceptant of other people's roles in society, but when these people have direct relation to him, he feels personally responsible (but he doesn't feel that personal responsibility is invoked by capitalistic exploitation).

Episode three was weak-ish, explored ludditry and transhumanism, but ultimately just felt like a cliché.</blockquote>

I feel the the first one is not as bad as you portray. I disagree that is descended into adolescent jokes. The quite disturbing climax (may be a bad choice of words...) was very well acted and I felt the repulsion conveyed excellently. Although the message that we are being glued to our screens, becoming spectators rather than agents in society is an interesting concept, albeit not one that I believe is as pressing as the points that are brought up in the second in the series. I also disagree that is was cliché if you could explain why we believe that I would be interested. The ending, which was mixed in with the credits made it felt the most human, although I am worried that it might be that is the one closest to reality, therefore I see it as most easy one to relate to.

The second one is the best, in our shared view it seems. The ending was really good, the warning that power and money changes people, even those who seem to be preaching the downfall of what they are participating. TBH I hadn't even thought of the metaphor of people powering their existences, I looked at it in a more literally way, a simple comment of resources and how lower classes are exploited. In fact rather the opposite of yours, a more Marxist one. One thing I didn't quite get, or at least felt was adequately explained, was the under underclass, those who did the sweeping. The abuse of them by the guy next to the protagonist seemed to try and comment on how the repressed repress others. That everyone is as bad as each other, but this wasn't shown in any other characters. One problem I had with it was in fact that number of issues it tried to tackle. I felt it made it feel unfocused rather than broad, if it had just stuck to capitalism/reduction of entertainment to either reality TV either laughing or cheering on people it would have been better (if someone could remind me where, book/film etc the idea of entertainment simply being a man being hit in the balls with an american football came from, and yes I know it was referenced in the Simpsons). Also if you are talking cliché then the second one has taken so much off over, more well-known dystopian novels. The female character love interest is taken by the system, male protagonist then tries to overthrow system, becomes a part of it is basically 1984. 

Also I think in Episode three Brooker is mentioned in the credits and was marketed as his work, so seems likely he would be involved. I also don't think that the last has Luddite views, as Brooker is defiantly not one, I feel it is trying to be a less practical comment on society and a more philosophical one. If you take it as showing the importance of forgetting then it is a quite interesting concept. On the other hand the main character felt badly developed, as at first he seemed to be a paranoid obsessive, but in the end of was proven right, with the final scene showing him regaining his humanity, eg the ability to forget and not go over every memory in the smallest detail.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:19:51 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by skeej</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358688</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Funny that you adressed the sexuality as leading theme in all 3 episodes, I noticed that too CrashSite. I have to agree with Chris about episode 1, it was in itself as sensationalist as the things it tried to condemn, and at times felt really contrived trying to twist it's plot into making some weak points that are not really discussed further. Episode 1 and 2 get a lot of ideas from the Marxist theory of alienation, and continuations of that matter by Guy Debord  (Society of the Spectacle). Interesting, and very well put to screen, but, as previously said, the concepts arent really explored further than just "pointing things out".

Episode 3 wandered around and ultimately couldn't decide on a core statement to make. Ultimately it was just a story of a mad man, as the rest of society seemed to function fine with this seemingly out-of-place piece of technology. Would type more but no time now ;D 

d2m, you were saying? ;D]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:13:14 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Nymthae</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358687</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from octochris</i>
		<blockquote>It should be mentioned that Brooker didn't have anything to do with episode 3, I believe.
</blockquote>

Ah. I think someone had vaguely said that to me before, although they weren't particularly sure.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:02:43 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Dr. Chris</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358686</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[It should be mentioned that Brooker didn't have anything to do with episode 3, I believe.

In my opinion the first episode was pretty weak. It seemed to be exploring hypocritical expectations and voyeurism, but ultimately degraded into juvenile sniggers and cliché plotlines.

The second episode was fantastic, and in my opinion was the best by far. So many concepts explored. First of all, the whole plot revolves around people powering their own existence. It seems very removed from reality, but in fact, this is a fair representation of reality, where money is the ultimate carrot on a stick, ultimately producing exportable and unrevolutionary products and saleables rather than new ideas and concepts; where on the rare occasions that such things can be found, they are made to appeal to a mass market. Lots of other stuff, too, but if I go into it all I'll probably end up making this a page long post (misanthropy, hypocrisy, luck and chance, whether money is a true measure of success, love, watered-down commercialism, helplessness, amongst other concepts). One thing I never heard mentioned when discussing it with people afterwards is this idea that he is acceptant of other people's roles in society, but when these people have direct relation to him, he feels personally responsible (but he doesn't feel that personal responsibility is invoked by capitalistic exploitation).

Episode three was weak-ish, explored ludditry and transhumanism, but ultimately just felt like a cliché.]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=off-topic&#038;topic=19852&#038;post=358686</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:54:01 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CrashSite</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358681</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[The only thing is that going off the three dramas, Brooker appears to have a somewhat weird relationship with sex, which I am sure an over zealous psychologist would love to pick apart. It might be a point he was trying to make, but relationships and sex heavily feature in all and in all in either perverse or negative lights.

It could be that he sees that as a measurement of humanity and the fact that in all three there is issues to do with it, thus reflecting the society around them. Or he has issues with normal relationships.

Probably unfair to speculate on it &#60;3

On the other hand I did really like his comment of how society is currently changing, to where we are voyeuristic sadists. Things like Total Wipeout, which is basically laughing at people failing and getting mildly hurt. No more is this more apparent that on the internet, with youtube being full of videos of people failing or getting hurt, with huge numbers of people watching them. 

The banality of entertainment on the internet, just sensational (as in, of the senses) images without meaning is the preferred form. Also thought it was interesting to see that he wanted to show how the impersonal comments on youtube can still hurt real people. It has always bothered me that people are willing to be assholes because they know there are no consequences, it speaks badly for the human condition, that by nature, if we know we are free from being accountable, we are not altruistic, but in fact the opposite.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:24:39 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by tapley</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358637</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Plus he married Konnie Huq - Fit.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:28:36 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by xiuxiu</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358636</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[its amazing, agree. just saw his 2011 wipe which is good as well.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:22:20 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Dukermons</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358625</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Charlie is a massive boss.  I love him and his "Games journalist" background just a little too much.

Long live the Brooker!]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:32:41 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Nymthae</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358622</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I watched them when they were on, and they are really really great.

The third felt a bit weaker as well to me, though it still wasn't bad.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:12:40 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Farah</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358621</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[charlie brooker's always been a g and it's no different with this series

i cba to write any pretentious ponderances on the concepts brought up with this series(and tbh, the general running theme of anything charlie brooker makes, most notably i'd say newswipe and 10 o'clock news) but i will say he's generally on point.

i've not watched the third one yet but the first two parts of this series were particularly good watches, though i'd have liked a bit more context w/ the second but i suppose that's the point]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:04:00 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by vG</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358599</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[cool story]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:51:48 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by D2M</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-19852/page-1/?recent=358697#post=358595</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from CrashSite</i>
		<blockquote>
Would be interested in hearing other's thoughts and interpretations and we might get some interesting discourse.</blockquote>

Highly unlikely if you want to use this forum as a medium for intelligent discussion.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:09:58 +0100</pubDate>
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