ETF2L – Latest activity in “Regarding the div1 vanilla TF2 rule thingy” https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/ Reply by D2M https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-14/?recent=140776#post=140776
By writing comments on the match pages and pasting logs from Steam/IRC – teams will be protecting themselves by having a record of their merc/wildcard/server agreement and we will be able to assist them because they have followed our instructions and guidelines, giving us information to use.
and why cant you do same with unlocks, whats the problem :D I'm sure that someone deleted this so ill post it again 8) Because it's not up for discussion. The point of the match comments page was for the reasons stated above. This is enough derailing of this topic. I've asked you politely to contact me in IRC to continue with it, which you have refused to do. Therefore, I'm locking the topic so that I am not forced to reply every 5 minutes to another stupid question.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140776 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:47:31 +0100 Reply by m0re https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-14/?recent=140776#post=140774 By writing comments on the match pages and pasting logs from Steam/IRC – teams will be protecting themselves by having a record of their merc/wildcard/server agreement and we will be able to assist them because they have followed our instructions and guidelines, giving us information to use. and why cant you do same with unlocks, whats the problem :D I'm sure that someone deleted this so ill post it again 8)]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140774 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:44:07 +0100 Reply by D2M https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-14/?recent=140776#post=140766 All i'm saying that you've introduced this match page comments to this season, with mercs and so on. Why would you wash your hands from other agreements as well, as it's easy to use match page to deal with these matters later? We didn't introduce anything, the point was to re-affirm that teams should be using the match page when agreeing to mercs, servers and wildcards. There were a number of important cases last season that arose, I'm sure you remember them. There was the time Paroxysm agreed to play on a certain day, except the agreement was made by a player who was not a leader/deputy of the team. Thus they declared the agreement to be null and void and it caused a lot of problems. There were multiple times when mercs had been agreed, but the next day teams claimed that they had not allowed a merc to play and they wanted a default win. By writing comments on the match pages and pasting logs from Steam/IRC - teams will be protecting themselves by having a record of their merc/wildcard/server agreement and we will be able to assist them because they have followed our instructions and guidelines, giving us information to use.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140766 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:33:47 +0100 Reply by Haunter https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-14/?recent=140776#post=140765 a.) sandman: being unable to shoot / defend yourself is ridiculous, so -> ban! b.) tdh, they fixed the mini-crits.. gratz.. still that weapon hardly needs any skill -> ban! c.) lol at bb and your argument, dealing 500dmg is so easy.. and getting minicrits for 10 seconds is a joke. you re the only person i ever saw whining about the equalizer.. the soldier is, i think we all agree, one of the weaker classes.. as both of the other unlocks are unbalanced(=shit), the equalizer thanks god gives him something new and useful. being able to run when lowhealth is an option as nice as being able to kill someone really fast.. someone must ve dominated you with a melee weapon reaaaallly badly :D a) with sandman u can run away, and the health penalty makes it balanced since u can die with 1 shot. b) the tdh beeing easier to airshot and rewarding it with mini-crits makes me wonder what was valve thinking :D c) bb takes to long to charge and the ammount of times u will need shotgun, makes it balanced About the equalizer, its not AT ALL a sidegrade with shovel, ofc it improves the soldier, but why would someone use the shovel when pickaxe is much better? that means its not balanced. It should have health penalty or something, 175hp perhaps]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140765 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:30:52 +0100 Reply by m0re https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-14/?recent=140776#post=140763 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140763 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:26:58 +0100 Reply by suni https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-14/?recent=140776#post=140756 the way i see it if everyone in div1 wants to play vanilla why should anyone from div2/3/4/5/6 even have a say in the matter? I would very much like to play with vanilla or that new unlocks are banned in div2 :]]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140756 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:21:54 +0100 Reply by franco https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140752 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140752 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:16:09 +0100 Reply by mvp. https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140750
NO sandman, NO tdh, NO bb these are imo the unbalanced weapons. i dont see any reason to ban something like the flare gun? the cloak and dagger? the sandvich?
a sandman hit will not let you shoot for 1-2 sec thats all and the scout can do it only every 15 sec - is not really a threat or? with the direct hit you are left with 2,7 % of the rocket launcher splash volume, he can do 140 dmg at point blank range as compensation (removing mini-crits completely would have be better) I needed to do over 500 dmg - this is like killing both soldiers and one scout alone - with the buff banner to get charged and if a soldier can gets so much damage alone the other team should have lost middle and second point anyway so its hardly op but on the other side the equalizer can run up to 96 % of the scout speed and do 162 dmg - more like a not charged headshot and no one complains except me? my team will not use tdh or sandman but I dont see its op and need a ban a.) sandman: being unable to shoot / defend yourself is ridiculous, so -> ban! b.) tdh, they fixed the mini-crits.. gratz.. still that weapon hardly needs any skill -> ban! c.) lol at bb and your argument, dealing 500dmg is so easy.. and getting minicrits for 10 seconds is a joke. you re the only person i ever saw whining about the equalizer.. the soldier is, i think we all agree, one of the weaker classes.. as both of the other unlocks are unbalanced(=shit), the equalizer thanks god gives him something new and useful. being able to run when lowhealth is an option as nice as being able to kill someone really fast.. someone must ve dominated you with a melee weapon reaaaallly badly :D]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140750 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:14:40 +0100 Reply by D2M https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140749 so stuff in matchpage doesnt mean anything, as it was only gentlemens rule. hell we can even use merc for every match even other teams disagree, as merc using is also under gentlemens rule usually. I'm not saying that other d1 teams start to use these guns in middle of a fight, but in lower divs that might happen and IF its recorded on match page that WE will agree to play with vanillaTF2 then you dont have a problem dealing with that matter. There are clear rules with regards to mercs, servers, etc on the rules page. This is what the area of text you highlighted from the news page was in reference to. So no, your example regarding mercs wouldn't work at all, since we have rules defined for these occasions. The issue you've highlighted is a clear problem with a gentleman's agreement. Not every gentleman could be trusted - as history quite clearly shows us! m0re if you want to discuss this further, please pm me on IRC.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140749 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:11:43 +0100 Reply by caned https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140748 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140748 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:11:17 +0100 Reply by D2M https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140746 There's no doubt that etf2l improved and will keep improving with the current admin team. I'm very happy with the changes you made and about the willingness to listen to suggestions. I mean the fact alone that you are giving feedback here proves this. Nonetheless I still don't know why you are implementing limits to unlocks? From reading the etf2l forum I didn't get the impression that the majority thinks limiting unlocks is the best thing to do. (I could be wrong tho) They were a provisional idea as it was felt that they were 'suspect' weapons anyway. For example, TDH. It was overpowered if somebody left the ground by an inch or so. We provisionally limited it to one on the basis that we expected it to be updated by Valve, as had been suggested in their communication with us. Similar thing with the other weapons that we felt might be contentious. We wanted to do this so that we could get some feedback on how teams found their games playing with 1 TDH/Possibly Buff Banner etc, as there are a limited number of games that each of the Admins can play with their respective teams. From the feedback suggested, we were then able to pass this to Valve and hope that they would update the weapons in a manner which would enable them to be used viably in competitive gameplay. It's clear that the expected update has not fixed things in the manner that we had hoped and thus we will be discussing the unlocks this weekend amongst the Admin team. It's always difficult when new weapons/items are introduced into a game between seasons, and not particularly balanced. I appreciate everyone's views on the weapons and am definitely trying to see things from every viewpoint. Personally I'm just as happy playing with the pre-war unlocks only. Thanks for your kind comments skinnie, we are trying!]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140746 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:07:33 +0100 Reply by m0re https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140743
you might want to remove this from front page then "Any agreement between two teams regarding the use of mercs, wild cards, servers, unlocks, or any other kind of special arrangement must be recorded on the relevant match page. We cannot help you settle any disputes unless the issue has been confirmed by both teams on the match page. It is your responsibility to make sure you and your opponent follow this rule."
Jimmy added that to deal with teams that complain about mercs/match arranging/servers etc and have not recorded anything on the match page itself, meaning we cannot help. It was not intended to mention the word unlocks or have anything to do with that and I will ammend it immediately. You're well aware of how difficult it is to deal with situations, being an ex-admin yourself. so stuff in matchpage doesnt mean anything, as it was only gentlemens rule. hell we can even use merc for every match even other teams disagree, as merc using is also under gentlemens rule usually. I'm not saying that other d1 teams start to use these guns in middle of a fight, but in lower divs that might happen and IF its recorded on match page that WE will agree to play with vanillaTF2 then you dont have a problem dealing with that matter.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140743 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:02:22 +0100 Reply by cheetah https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140742 NO sandman, NO tdh, NO bb these are imo the unbalanced weapons. i dont see any reason to ban something like the flare gun? the cloak and dagger? the sandvich? a sandman hit will not let you shoot for 1-2 sec thats all and the scout can do it only every 15 sec - is not really a threat or? with the direct hit you are left with 2,7 % of the rocket launcher splash volume, he can do 140 dmg at point blank range as compensation (removing mini-crits completely would have be better) I needed to do over 500 dmg - this is like killing both soldiers and one scout alone - with the buff banner to get charged and if a soldier can gets so much damage alone the other team should have lost middle and second point anyway so its hardly op but on the other side the equalizer can run up to 96 % of the scout speed and do 162 dmg - more like a not charged headshot and no one complains except me? my team will not use tdh or sandman but I dont see its op and need a ban]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140742 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:02:02 +0100 Reply by skinnie https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140740
If I understand correctly the admins put these 'preliminary' rules of limits and agreements to promote some further discussion and suggestions. Now everyone knows the viewpoint of most of the div1 teams. Imo all this was to be expected with the 100+ pages discussion of the WAR update? Especially now that there still are limits to the unlocks for which I still didn't hear a single sensible argument. It all feels like the admins don't want to take a clear standpoint on the use of unlocks and just want to let the teams agree on it themselves.
The first part is correct skinnie. We actually wanted to get some feedback from players rather than the draconian rulesets that have appeared in previous seasons with little or no feedback being asked for or even listened to. The second part, not so much. As I mentioned earlier - the provisional ideas were released 4 days ago... which was 29 days before the season was due to start. This is plenty of time to gather feedback, give Valve a chance to update the weapons and define some final rules which would be active at least a week before the season starts. At no point have we wanted to stand back and not make decisions. EVERY season teams have been angry at us for not listening to players and not taking any actions. This season we've listened... We've given fixed maps. We've changed the way the sign-ups work so that it's not just a rush to be in the first 330 teams or you're screwed. We've asked for feedback on provisional rule ideas. - These are just 3 examples. I may be slightly biased but I believe this is the most caring and open Admin team that we have had for a long time. We want to listen, we want to help, and we want to have the best season that ETF2L has ever had. Thanks :) There's no doubt that etf2l improved and will keep improving with the current admin team. I'm very happy with the changes you made and about the willingness to listen to suggestions. I mean the fact alone that you are giving feedback here proves this. Nonetheless I still don't know why you are implementing limits to unlocks? From reading the etf2l forum I didn't get the impression that the majority thinks limiting unlocks is the best thing to do. (I could be wrong tho)]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140740 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:57:12 +0100 Reply by D2M https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-8494/page-13/?recent=140776#post=140738 you might want to remove this from front page then "Any agreement between two teams regarding the use of mercs, wild cards, servers, unlocks, or any other kind of special arrangement must be recorded on the relevant match page. We cannot help you settle any disputes unless the issue has been confirmed by both teams on the match page. It is your responsibility to make sure you and your opponent follow this rule." Jimmy added that to deal with teams that complain about mercs/match arranging/servers etc and have not recorded anything on the match page itself, meaning we cannot help. It was not intended to mention the word unlocks or have anything to do with that and I will ammend it immediately. You're well aware of how difficult it is to deal with situations involving mercs/servers, being an ex-admin yourself.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=league&topic=8494&post=140738 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:52:48 +0100