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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;Class Limit 1/2 - Reasoning&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
    	<item>
    	    <title>Reply by Renegade</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4143</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[1 problem with demos is that unlike the rest of the classes, they do not attack in waves. That is to say, soldiers are more effective when closer to the enemy (more damage, easier to hit), and so they push to deal damage, but of course fall back to reload. This applies to scouts, heavies (they cant tank a 6 man teams damage for long), even pyros have to fall back... Demos are the only class that can stay in their defensive position, whilst dealing the damage capabilities of an offensive player (no damage drop off on either of their weapons). So the demo doesnt ever make himself vulnerable at times, and doesnt pull back, where he deals less damage but takes less; he is always doing damage, reloading and in a safe position. For a class that has the hugest damage potential, this is a huge issue imo.

Another issue is that it is a defensive class, and it does just that, it defends. The problem arises when they go out and attack, but taking a position and defending it. It works extremely well, because it is their design, and they can hold an area by themselves, by simply killing anything that comes near. Im not suggesting a defence class should be forced to go point two at start, and not even try to attack, but that this way of defending is hard to overcome.

Also the huge range of random damage makes it extremely hard to predict the outcome of a fight with a demo: he could hit a solly with two 130 damage nades and kill him, or he could hit him with two 60 damage nades, and have a much smaller effect on his life. 

And another huge issue imo, is that sticky grenades are by design meant to be used in bundles (ie. 4 in a group and such, rather than one by one), so why are they the single strongest hit in the whole game? Why do they do more than rockets, scatterguns, shotguns, even a long blasting of a flamethrower. 

Just some thoughts for people to look at and consider.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:12:27 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by tramsig</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4121</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I think that it isnt just that they uses 2 demos, its that some teams have boring tactics with 2 demos, like 2 defensive demos even when they attack, we have played matches where the other team putted stickies on the exits on our last point and that is just playing boring.
Not to mention badlands center, 2 demos(with a soldier to guard them) stays back and spams your train and sets stickys on their, sure you can go other ways but then they just cap the middle and run for your second.
I wish that we could play with dl2 for the variety, but with 2 defensive demos its just too boring :/]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:02:59 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Wlv</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4120</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<b>So ohnoes div1 clans are bad vs. 2 demomen so the whole tf2 competative community has to suffer?</b>

Certainly not, hence the "Demo Limit 1" thread :)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 03:27:53 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Limon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4113</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[use your scouts to kill one demo :&#62;]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=582&#038;post=4113</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:05:43 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by waebi</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4111</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[(i have no fix opinion yet, try to convince me plx.)

There are 2 sides - 
the one says like "you can counter it, just sit down and think how you do it."
the other says like "no way, 2 demos = fail!"

would like to know from both sides 1 thing:

1. HOW are you supposed to counter it? I am not sitting down and thinking, i gotta heal my ppl.
2. Why is it really "teh fail"? 

Everyone uses 2 scouts, i find that highly offensive as Medic, i cant even stand one!!!11 /sarcasm.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 00:35:40 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Smofo</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4110</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[So ohnoes div1 clans are bad vs. 2 demomen so the whole tf2 competative community has to suffer?]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=582&#038;post=4110</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:59:51 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Wlv</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4105</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[and if most div1 teams do that vs 2x demo, they generally loose, esp vs wotr :P]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=582&#038;post=4105</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:34:41 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Limon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-3/?recent=4143#post=4094</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[yet most div 1 teams dont seem to have scouts anywhere near the demo, they're off hunting the medic  or something pointless like getting boosted by their medic, most of the time a demo is an easy kill, at least if you can aim ( :C )]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:56:59 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Wlv</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-2/?recent=4143#post=4091</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[vs another skilled team that simply doesn't work ^^^^, they'll have their demomen protected by their scouts and/or soldier]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:34:11 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Limon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-2/?recent=4143#post=4089</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[perhaps some people should have their scouts going for either one of the enemy demo's instead of having them sit in their canyon, that's what most teams seem to do =)]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=582&#038;post=4089</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:04:33 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by ShitFly</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-2/?recent=4143#post=4088</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[hmm, tbh there is loads of difference between demoman projectiels and soldier projectiels! they are weaker and they have direct impact wich make people have the opportunity to hide behind objects on the map while demoman projectiels just can get shot anywhere and do way more damage.

2 demoman put loads of pressure on a team (who is slower to come out because of the two soldiers, iam not even speaking from a heavy) 

Again this is only general, ye good teams know how to block the 2 demo tactic with putting loads of pressure back etc but still we have to see everything in general. 

And as we can see from the poll, in general people have the feeling that two demoman's should be restricted. 

Solution to valve? make stickies explode when they are shot by the opponent team :) would be a fair solution tbh ^^]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:57:53 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by aeqvist</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-2/?recent=4143#post=4083</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[EDIT..]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=582&#038;post=4083</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:19:12 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Evil</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-2/?recent=4143#post=4082</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Only faggots play demoman and every team should only have one faggot, otherwise comms suffer, im looking at you byte.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:02:53 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Nodachi</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-2/?recent=4143#post=4079</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[As a scout i agree with byte, one sticky shouldnt kill me but for the limit of 1 it sucks. The reason is there are Teams with 2 good demos and their only way to actually compete is to play with them instead of forcing one of the Demos to go play soldier.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 16:48:52 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Smofo</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-582/page-2/?recent=4143#post=4078</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Yes, I got what you all saying about spam this that, but we worked on 2 demomen it works we don't sticky up whole buildings to defend we have 1 attacking demoman 1 defending one.
We worked on playing with 2 demomen, you could think of counter strategies to fight it.
You will also have if you do DL1 like badlands will always be 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 2 scouts and a medic, kind of boring? but now as one is specialized in the other you have more diversity.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:58:59 +0200</pubDate>
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