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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;Swiss system tournament&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
    	<item>
    	    <title>Reply by Brass_Monkey</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-2/?recent=41618#post=41618</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA["1) dropping teams. This would screw up the system. What would you do with the teams that were supposed to play these teams? You can’t give them the points, that would unbalance the divisiosn, you also can’t deny them the points, for the same reason. Also if you end up with an uneven amount of teams due to teams folding, then what."

This is really not a problem. I play a lot of MTG, where they use this system. I have a lot of experience with this system, and dropping players is never a problem. This is partly because you have all the players in the same pool, and have a playoff between the best teams after the swiss rounds. And even if teams are dropping, you could just give the opponents default win, since it wouldn't mess up the standings badly. Besides, the teams should drop between the rounds, so that you can remove the dropped teams before the next pairings are made.

"2) Fixtures for a week can only be generated when all matches of the previous week have been finished. As of now, plenty of people can’t even play a match on time when they know who their opponent is from the start of the season. Asking teams to play 1 match a week and schedule it with their opponent in the same week, is not really doable. It would mean very active teams, or fixed dates. That clashes with the amount of freedom we want to give you in the etf2l (map picks, liberal match dates)"

This could be a problem, but it could easily be solved by either having fixed dates, or having a biweekly matches. Everyone plays their game the first week, the second week new pairings are made, and the third week they play their next game. Can't see how this would be a bigger problem than it was in the cups where you used randoms pairings. I realise that this would take a lot of time, but my example was just to illustrate a point. 

"There is one huge problem with Swiss style tournaments. If one team gets on top and wins 1-2 matches suddenly it’s 1st vs. 4th and then 1st vs. 5th. If at all possible in a swiss you don’t play someone more than once. Therefore if you get to the top you can usually stay there and high-mid level teams get screwed over. it’s a good system but I don’t really think if works in small divisions like ETF2L has. It works better in larger fields (30+ competitors)."

This is also not an issue. The good thing about the swiss tournament system is that it works great with any number of players, and that you're not totally screwed even if you lose a match (or two). I do however agree that it's better and more fun with more players. They should have all the players in the same pool, and after a number of matches (depending on the number of players), there should be a top 8 playoff between the 8 best teams.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:57:27 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by daithi1</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-2/?recent=41618#post=41607</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[There is one huge problem with Swiss style tournaments.  If one team gets on top and wins 1-2 matches suddenly it's 1st vs. 4th and then 1st vs. 5th. If at all possible in a swiss you don't play someone more than once. Therefore if you get to the top you can usually stay there and high-mid level teams get screwed over. it's a good system but I don't really think if works in small divisions like ETF2L has. It works better in larger fields (30+ competitors).]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=2601&#038;post=41607</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:37:33 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Randomdog</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-2/?recent=41618#post=41490</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I love the idea, it works incredibly well in other games and while the flaws of dropped teams exist i believe there is a program called mantis (or somthing like that) used in TCG tournaments to decide round pairings and I think that has a workaround for it. I'm just looking into it now]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:03:16 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Nightbox</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-2/?recent=41618#post=41389</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[DNB is right]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=2601&#038;post=41389</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:02:13 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Janman</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-2/?recent=41618#post=41309</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Would be nice to try it in a one-two days tournament or something]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:40:42 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by DeNeusbeer</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-2/?recent=41618#post=41284</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Ah right, i though i already responded to this.
anyway, there's 2 reasons why this won't work.

1) dropping teams. This would screw up the system. What would you do with the teams that were supposed to play these teams? You can't give them the points, that would unbalance the divisiosn, you also can't deny them the points, for the same reason. Also if you end up with an uneven amount of teams due to teams folding, then what.

2) Fixtures for a week can only be generated when all matches of the previous week have been finished. As of now, plenty of people can't even play a match on time when they know who their opponent is from the start of the season. Asking teams to play 1 match a week and schedule it with their opponent in the same week, is not really doable. It would mean very active teams, or fixed dates. That clashes with the amount of freedom we want to give you in the etf2l (map picks, liberal match dates)

So yea, this will work in offline tournaments, but not here for the reasons mentioned above. Ask the guys from the community lan to do this, but not us :)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:47:57 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by veehell</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-2/?recent=41618#post=36282</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[good idea, why not to try it :)]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=2601&#038;post=36282</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 22:32:09 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Aye Doc</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34044</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[yeah, CEVO-F/CEVO-A runs basically this

each team is given a rough estimate of their skill level based on god knows what, I guess just admin input plus the results of the two weeks of preseason they play

then in week 1, you are matched up with another team roughly equal to your skill level

from then on, each team will play the team seeded directly below it (i.e. 1 plays 2, 3 plays 4) unless they've already played that team, and it works baiscally the same as swiss style though it does make some adjustments

it works fairly well and leads to some rather nice standings at the end of the season]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:51:45 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by JimmyBreeze</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34040</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Doesn't at least CEVO-A or some other American league do this?

Very good idea, in my opinion, especially for the lower divs which are next to impossible for admins to properly balance.]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=2601&#038;post=34040</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:40:29 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by uvio</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34034</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Yes, swiss style would need bigger divs.
Same number of weeks/games for each clan as the higher divs still running the normal rotation.
If there is an uneven amount of teams with the same win/loss ratio - the case where someone wouldn't have a match - you just play against someone from the next lower rating.
Another thing is what if a team drops and you end up with an uneven amount. Someone wouldn't have a match each week then. This can be solved by finding the best match from the bottom up for on week and top to bottom the other. Randomly selecting the team from the same rating braket, that would play against a team with a different rating, but one has to check if the teams have played against each other before. :)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:57:07 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by toasty.</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34030</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Its a really good idea.]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=2601&#038;post=34030</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:50:50 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Nymthae</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34028</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Swiss System tournaments are a good way to play, in my opinion.

I doubt many of you have ever played the MyLeague/Case's Ladder tournaments but they had the standard single elimination, double elim. and a swiss system stile of running things. The SS went down well, it was a nice format and for the lower players, it was a lot nicer for them.

Though, one thing - would it end up making the divisions more so, bigger? In my experience it's been that it's over when there is only one team left undefeated - which obviously can be ignored to play more games, but you run a bigger chance of repeating games there. So would the divisions be bigger and follow the undefeated way?

Thinking about it also, I think it's possible that one division may end up playing more games depending on how things are seeded? ie. just skimming the Wikipedia page, 8 teams played, over in 2 rounds, because only one team won both of their games. 

I'm tired, during writing this i've confused myself I think. I'm just babbling.

Summary: Good idea :D]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:38:16 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Wlv</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34025</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Actually a really good thought, I'll drop it in to the admin forums as well]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=2601&#038;post=34025</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:26:21 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by fallen seraph</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34022</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[sounds like a very good idea.]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=league&#038;topic=2601&#038;post=34022</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:14:28 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by swoice</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2601/page-1/?recent=41618#post=34019</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[swiss? JUST AWESOME! ^^ sounds great, but without script not realisable.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:09:37 +0100</pubDate>
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