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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;promotion / demotion suggestion&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by DeNeusbeer</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-2/?recent=28767#post=28767</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[That's the reasoning behind it indeed.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:10:50 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hellfish</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-2/?recent=28767#post=28755</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[ah ok :)

"The one thing that we can do, is hold in account the place you ended when on a promotion spot. An example:
the 7th and 8th of div 4 fight against the 3rd and 4th of div 5 for a div 4 spot. What we’ll do is match a #7 against a #4, and a #8 against a #3."

i think thats very fair. cause if the 4th of div 5 plays against the 8th of div4 it wouldnt be fair, cause the team which played a better season (#3) has to play the more difficult match against #7.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 13:58:56 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by DeNeusbeer</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-2/?recent=28767#post=28630</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[nono, you misunderstood, there will be MORE playoffs there. Look at the division tables. The green ones are going up a division, the red ones going down. The blue ones are gonna play a playoff match for promotion/relegation.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 23:17:59 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hellfish</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-2/?recent=28767#post=28620</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[soo there wont be any playoffs in the lower divs?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:39:46 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by DeNeusbeer</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-2/?recent=28767#post=28608</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[div 5/ div 6 was nothing more than an estimated guess for a lot of teams. We did what we could, but having that balanced was an impossibility. Teams there are usually just starting out, so some may improve very fast, while other's don't. Also they have no history, so we don't know how good they are off the bat. The only think we have is the skill level they entered when signing up, and that doesn't tell us much really :)

That is the reason why we have a bit more aggressive promotion/relegation scheme there. To get the good teams out of the lower divisions quickly.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 21:18:10 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hellfish</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-2/?recent=28767#post=28595</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[i hope this will also work in the lower divs.
cause when i look at div 5 and 6 its just absurd which teams play in div 5 and which in div 6 ;)
so i hope there will be change :P
just my two cents]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 19:36:31 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by DeNeusbeer</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-2/?recent=28767#post=28583</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[The thing is. We do want playoffs, to give everyone a chance to play where he is supposed to be playing next season. You agree with that.

The problem lies here: every season is different regarding dropped teams. 
I agree that the skill level of a team ending 7th in div Xa might be totally different from that of a team ending 7th in div Xb, due to a lot of factors. That's inevitable.

But we can not, and will not, hand pick teams at that stage and say: "You're a better team than your opponent in the other div, you get a different playoff opponent, or no  playoff at all."

Having that said, we'll have to treat everyone who ended 7th as equal. The same applies to the top of the division below that ofcourse. So those 4 matchups (talking about div 2-3) will be between a random team from each div.

The one thing that we can do, is hold in account the place you ended when on a promotion spot. An example:
the 7th and 8th of div 4 fight against the 3rd and 4th of div 5 for a div 4 spot. What we'll do is match a #7 against a #4, and a #8 against a #3. 

When a team drops, and there is an open spot, we have to find a way to fit that in the promotion system. (which is the isue you are addressing.) 
Now, let's say we're missing a #8 from div 2. What i would probably do is (note: just an example): have the #7 from div 2 play a match, the winner stays there, the loser gets into the real promotion/relegation. Those 2 remaining div 2 teams play a div 3 team as planned. the other 2 div 3 teams play eachother for the last promotion spot. (which would be a theoretically easier match than against a div 2 team).

This results in: everyone who deserved a playoff is getting one, noone is getting a free ride or anything. Sure, it would leave a gap in div 3, but im not bothered by that, we will have gaps in any case. More important is that everyone who deserved a playoff will get one.

Now, this is just 1 example of 1 condition. There are many combinations possible of dropped teams for playoff spots. I personally am not willing to think of a system to make that even, as there would be just too much conditions to consider. (several divisions, with possibly uneven amounts of teams dropped). In div 2 this is still overseeable, but as you get lower, it'll become more of a problem.

I'd much rather think of making playoffs when we get to it. See how much teams dropped, how much are left, and based on that, make the promotion amtch ups. Ofcourse i will still keep in mind as much as possible everything mentioned above. (like the top from div 4 plays the lowest from div 5 etcetera.)

And to add this: Sometimes we need to make a decision: like in the above example of the 1 div 2 team missing we need to decide which 2 div 3 teams get to play eachother. Such decisions will ALLWAYS be done randomly, as we won't pick our favourites, so to speak.  (you can thank random.org for the randomness)

A final note: Yes, once again, this can cause unbalance, better teams in div 3 than in div 2, because they had a bad promotion matchup.  But there will always be teams not returning for the next season, and gaps from drops in this season. IF you truly belong in a higher div by the start of next season, the option is always still available.
The one thing we will not do, is deny someone a spot they earned from last season (unless they request it).

EDIT: ow, i wanted this to be shorter, i got a bit carried away :(]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:36:38 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by atreides</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28570</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I don't like this system of 'playing with the scheme'. Differences regarding performance on 7th and 8th places at div2a and div2b can vary very much especially at the end of the season relating to leaving players to higher placed teams, therefore the result of a game between 2nd placed at divisions 3 against one of them is too much related to admin's choices of opponents.

Filling up dropped slots needs some system in my opinion, 2nd side effect of these proposed playoffs.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:42:30 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by DeNeusbeer</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28563</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[read my 5th paragraph ;)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:24:42 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by atreides</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28545</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I suggested to change the playoffsystem (you described in general direct pro/demotion in your post), direct promotion/demotion is fine as it is. My proposal was also to systematise the process of filling up dropped slots.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:02:45 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by DeNeusbeer</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28542</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Basically what we're trying to do, is have the absolute bottom of div Y go down a div, and have the top of div Y-1 go up a div automatically.

Take div 2/3 for example.  The numbers 1 of div 3 will go up, which means the numbers 9 and 10 of div 2 will have to go down.

Then we have the playoffs. In theory, the worst teams of div 2 should be better than the best of division 3. (ofcourse this doesn't work, because of teams changing, errors in the placements etcetera)
Anyway, based on that idea we're doing the following:
The best of div 3, play the worst of div 2. (1 match each). The winners of each match go to div 2, the losers to div 3. The matchups of these playoff matches are done randomly.

One could argue that this still won't get the best teams in the 2nd div for sure. This is true. Say you are a div 2 team that ended 7th. You could happen to meet an exceptionally good div 3 2nd placed team, of whom you'll lose. Now, there's another div 2 team that ended 8th, they could meet a lesser team that ended 2nd in their div 3, and the div 2 team wins that. But hey, didn't you end up above that div 2 team that stayed in div 2? You did! It's jsut a case of bad luck here, we can't go and divide the matchups based on who we think is good or not, that would call for bias.

This describes the ideal situation, with no drops. But there always are dropped teams. This gives us a little room to play with. Last season, i managed to make the playoffs so that, if every team who finished s3 would return for s4, the only free spots would be in div 4/5. I had to play a bit with the original scheme, like auto-promote every team ending 2nd in div 4 instead of having them play a playoff. This was due to the many drops in div 3. I also had some div 3 teams play eachother in a playoff, to fill up div 2.
The most important was, however: that every team that was promised a playoff match, was given one, AND that as much teams as possible got a promotion. This favors teams who played that season over new teams. So in a way, stability gets you something aswell.

Ofcourse, not every team returns for the next season, which will give us gaps in our division placements. This is what gives us a bit of room to play with. We can put those teams that were relegated to div 3 in div 2 again for example, or move that hot new team up to div 2 immediately instead of them having to begin in div 6.

Also, we tend to have more promotion/relegation spots and matches in the lower divisions, as stey are harder to predict where to place and more prone to skill changes. This leads to us automatically promoting the top 2 in div 5 and 6, instead of just the #1, like in div 2/3.

On a sidenote, You can see who gets promotion/relegation on the league tables: green = up, red = down, blue = playoff.

P.S.: morf is thinking what i'm thinking.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:58:21 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by morf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28537</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[edit: basicly, this is what i had in mind

the 2 teams that finish last in their div 2a and 2b get direct demotion from div 2, that makes 4 teams demoting to div 3.

the winner from every div 3 gets a direct promotion to div 2, thats 4 teams promoting to div 2 this season.

thats +-0 right

then the teams that finish 7th and 8th in div 2a and 2b get in a playoff, in this playoff, is also the teams that finish 2nd in div 3a, 3b, 3c and 3d

that makes it 4 div 2 teams risking a demotion and 4 div 3 teams getting the chance of promotion

if the div 2 demotion playoff and the div 3 promotion playoff would be separate, it could end up that the div 2 teams that got demoted still rip apart the div 3 teams that got promoted, which imo is stupid :p

my five cents]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:28:09 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by atreides</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28533</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[too much playoffs then, 2 times 8 team playoff. Besides, I think first of a division should get a promotion without any additional game -&#62; last 2 on div2 get demoted w/o.

On your calculation it's then 8 teams on div2 vs. 4 teams on div3 ?!]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:56:39 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by morf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28528</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[then i would suggest to make a playoff with the 2nd best team of all div 3 and the teams that place 7th and 8th in the two div 2, just to make it fair and square as f2 mentioned]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:47:19 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by digi</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2279/page-1/?recent=28767#post=28526</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[nvc just fucked up the layout of this page xD]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:40:56 +0100</pubDate>
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