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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;TF2 Player Rankings website - e-peens at the ready&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
    	<item>
    	    <title>Reply by S@GA</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=543413</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Kuferl</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

That shouldn't be a pickup log though, maybe it got pickup up because of TF2Pickup.net in the name?
Our log names are like these http://logs.tf/1002413 </blockquote>

Bump

Also how do I achieve the secret rank and what's its name? ;o

http://i.imgur.com/4MFUz2h.png]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2015 16:23:15 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Kuferl</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=543014</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Gentleman Jon</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

http://logs.tf/610209

</blockquote>

That shouldn't be a pickup log though, maybe it got pickup up because of TF2Pickup.net in the name?
Our log names are like these http://logs.tf/1002413]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 17:45:36 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by S@GA</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=543012</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Hmm, now I look stupid but I honestly cannot remember that at all and when I checked it also says that I don´t even have a tf2pickup profile so I figured I could ask you ^^]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 17:26:15 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Gentleman Jon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=543011</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from S@GA</i>
		<blockquote>Do you have an idea how I can have stats for demo in tf2pickup when I can tell for sure that I never played a single pickup in my life? ;o</blockquote>

http://logs.tf/610209]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 17:01:27 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by S@GA</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=542958</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Do you have an idea how I can have stats for demo in tf2pickup when I can tell for sure that I never played a single pickup in my life? ;o]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2015 00:42:34 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Gentleman Jon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=542031</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from 4hp</i>
		<blockquote>@GentlemanJon not a complaint about your system at all. That sort of limitations is unavoidable. I think a lot of people play lobbies "for the logs" regardless of how the player ranking works anyway, because winning a lobby doesn't matter to most players. I think only the newer players who are learning to play comp in tf2center really care about winning their games.

And I've noticed sometimes it's good to be on the losing team of a lobby if you're playing against prem players or whatever. Your team might be getting roflstomped but if you hold your own well you often go up in the rankings, whereas if you're in the team that's stomping but not doing much you can go down. So yeah I don't avoid playing against the Mikes of this world, idk what the others think about it though.</blockquote>

The idea is to reward individual play, but also to supply balancing data primarily. You can keep track of your own win/loss easily enough, by definition 50% must be average, and I've told you the upper bound is around 70% so the closer you are to 70% the better. It will be be in a bell curve distribution so getting from 50 to 55 would be significantly easier than getting from 65 to 70.

This works sufficiently well for outlying players who have great skill, but the more mediocre you are the more it's dominated by who you have played rather than how you played. A Bayesian system like Trueskill will do a perfectly respectable job of coping with that, but when I've look at such a system for balance it was ineffective.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2015 23:21:25 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CHERRY COKE</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=542022</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from 4hp</i>
		<blockquote>@GentlemanJon not a complaint about your system at all. That sort of limitations is unavoidable. I think a lot of people play lobbies "for the logs" regardless of how the player ranking works anyway, because winning a lobby doesn't matter to most players. I think only the newer players who are learning to play comp in tf2center really care about winning their games.

And I've noticed sometimes it's good to be on the losing team of a lobby if you're playing against prem players or whatever. Your team might be getting roflstomped but if you hold your own well you often go up in the rankings, whereas if you're in the team that's stomping but not doing much you can go down. So yeah I don't avoid playing against the Mikes of this world, idk what the others think about it though.</blockquote>
If your team is lobby stomping you need to be brave and go on the frontline, they will save you even if you fuck up and you'll get some kills/damage or whatever matters for ranking, but obviously one or more of those is factored :D]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:13:58 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by 13thDoctor</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=542013</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[@GentlemanJon not a complaint about your system at all. That sort of limitations is unavoidable. I think a lot of people play lobbies "for the logs" regardless of how the player ranking works anyway, because winning a lobby doesn't matter to most players. I think only the newer players who are learning to play comp in tf2center really care about winning their games.

And I've noticed sometimes it's good to be on the losing team of a lobby if you're playing against prem players or whatever. Your team might be getting roflstomped but if you hold your own well you often go up in the rankings, whereas if you're in the team that's stomping but not doing much you can go down. So yeah I don't avoid playing against the Mikes of this world, idk what the others think about it though.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2015 19:31:28 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Setlet</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=541949</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Dodging can be a problem but I think it will only be a issue for Mike himself and not for others. And maybe some other known players, but there are like 10 people who are that known vs 1000s players who play lobbies.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:23:17 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Gentleman Jon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=541934</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from 4hp</i>
		<blockquote>Examples of good teamplay like bodyblocking (or airblasting) an uber to save your combo or causing a distraction for your spy to get a big pick are things that can't really be quantified in an algorithm.</blockquote>

They could be if they were logged, or maybe if dem file parsing was more advanced. Stats surrounding uber manipulation are sorely absent. 

Obscurity isn't really a good solution to the problems of manipulative behaviour but without running a pickup system myself then it's the only method I have available. 

The strongest players (Mike) in 6v6 generally have a win % of around 70%, so if he's one of the last players to join a queue you will get people leaving the queue immediately because it's a coin flip whether they win or lose a ranking point. 

It's possible for the site to run a ranking punishment for leaving the queue, but then you have a very difficult balance to maintain between pissing people off for just being afk and protecting the system. 

The scene is probably too small at the moment to support anonymous queueing where levels of ability actually matter, it's still everyone in the same pickup anyway.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:34:38 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by 13thDoctor</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=541917</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Iller</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
A transparent system where you know what you have to do to advance in rank could not only make people play more seriously, but also help people improve if implemented in a good way.</blockquote>

Problem with this is that the player rankings system is mostly based on your logs, and having the algorithm be revealed to everyone would almost inevitably result in people who care about the ranking playing "for the logs" and basically just going for frags and baiting their team 24/7 in order to look good in the end.

Examples of good teamplay like bodyblocking (or airblasting) an uber to save your combo or causing a distraction for your spy to get a big pick are things that can't really be quantified in an algorithm.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:25:40 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Iller</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-14/?recent=543413#post=541914</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from AB</i>
		<blockquote>though a lot of people might start trying harder instead of messing about if they know that if they throw and lose their rating will go down.</blockquote>

I believe so too.
A transparent system where you know what you have to do to advance in rank could not only make people play more seriously, but also help people improve if implemented in a good way.
Of course, it can be incredibly hard to make such a system that cannot be exploited badly and I appreciate all work Jon has done in the current ranking system.

One big problem, I guess, is how to handle different skill levels of players in one team. If one higher level player plays in a team with lower level players and the team looses badly, then the better player should not really get punished in rankings too much or at all because of that. 
Also, if someone have an easy time in one team because the teammates are carrying then it should not really make the persons rank increase too much.

I don't know the details of the current system, but I imagine that the above mentioned things are very hard for an algorithm to detect in a game where teamwork means so much.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:47:58 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Setlet</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-13/?recent=543413#post=541912</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Gentleman Jon</i>
		<blockquote>It's not a teaching tool, just faceless useless blind judgement. The only really useful bit is if you like to keep track of your stats, but that breaks sometimes too.

edit: I think a win/loss system would work in showing quality, but it would also have knock on effects - players would develop negative habits trying to game the system, leaving queues to protect their rank, etc. You need completely anonymous joining to do something like that.</blockquote>

Dodging games does happen in every game, especially in higher tiers when you see a pro player on the enemy team and you decide not to even try. I think it's pretty rare though. However if you abandon during a game, you should get a loss regardless of whether your team wins. I think this can be seen in logs, right?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:22:07 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Adeel</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-13/?recent=543413#post=541909</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[though a lot of people might start trying harder instead of messing about if they know that if they throw and lose their rating will go down.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2015 02:53:13 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Gentleman Jon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-30892/page-13/?recent=543413#post=541901</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[It's not a teaching tool, just faceless useless blind judgement. The only really useful bit is if you like to keep track of your stats, but that breaks sometimes too.

edit: I think a win/loss system would work in showing quality, but it would also have knock on effects - players would develop negative habits trying to game the system, leaving queues to protect their rank, etc. You need completely anonymous joining to do something like that.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:50:23 +0200</pubDate>
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