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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;The new Winger&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by E-thug</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-3/?recent=476280#post=476280</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[srsly you guys, you guys srsly]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 04 Nov 2013 08:53:15 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by SmitZ</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-3/?recent=476280#post=476278</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Wow this Setsul guy is a big douche.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 04 Nov 2013 07:12:02 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by arc</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-3/?recent=476280#post=476203</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[nerds.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 03 Nov 2013 04:13:13 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Mentelex</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476202</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA["I'm shit at maths"]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 03 Nov 2013 03:03:04 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CursedGhost</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476199</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Well, I was trying to explain the maths of this particular problem to someone who didn't seem to have great understanding of it.

The line <code>x + x = 2x</code> is really important later on, when we want to know 'how many times higher than a normal jump is it, it also serves as a simple start that everyone can follow, so the next part becomes easier to understand.

After that I explain that the jump height for a winger jump naturally follows from the previous template, multiply both Xes with 1.25 (I actually didn't explain this properly, but EVERY TIME you see a stat+Y%, it always means stat*(Y%+1) which means stat*(Y/100+1), the addition is actually really confusing).

I mainly wanted establish a simple pattern and add to it, slowly increasing the complexity while keeping it easy to understand.

At the end I show how you can compute the +% increase stat (divide new stat by old stat, subtract 1 because we're going back to the confusing +% notation).

Schmuse, you are correct but missing the point. That is all :)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 03 Nov 2013 00:42:15 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Setsul</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476174</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Unit of LENGTH.
[...]
</blockquote>Sorry.
Too much copypasta.

<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>
The proof is ACTUALLY incomplete because he never defined what x is (number, vector or whatever rank tensor would all fit x+x=2x). That's what an actual mathematician would complain about in the very first line.
</blockquote>
<i>Quoted from Casual</i>
		<blockquote>Ok let's do math, x is height of a single jump</blockquote>
I think we can safely assume that height is a number of units of length. Of course the syntax isn't mathematically correct and nobody claimed it would be nor did he try to make it that way, but the concept of the proof is correct and all steps are included.

In something claiming to be an actual mathematical proof I would of course complain about that. In this context however the conext should provide enough information to make this a sufficient definition.

<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>
You understood x to be a number without question, so surely 2x=x+x (the defining property of multiplying a number something by 2) is NOT needed in the calculation.
</blockquote>It is not a definition. It is the calculation of the normal double jump height since that height wasn't defined before. You could argue that the definition of the double jump as 2 single jumps and the height of a single jump as x already include that, but that's how mathematical proofs work. You are proving that two statetements are equivalent. Of course each of these steps of this proof is obvious to us, but that is on purpose.

<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>

[...]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_unit
Ofc units can be natural if we use outside facts to define them.

This is not as pronounced in this case, though, but I would still argue since literally nobody was interested in the extra height gained relative to a single jump, using the full (w/o Winger) jump height is the obvious choice.</blockquote>
I don't think that way so that kind of negates or argument of it being "more natural". One could argue that calculating the height of the pre-buff winger double jump height is more difficult with your approach as is the comparision of the double jump heights with Casual's. There is no objectively better or "more natural" approach.
<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>
[...] Yea, that's just gibberish...
</blockquote>See paragraph above. Your definition of "more natural" seems to be pretty biased.
<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>
[...] I didn't you're making shit up now. Good time for me to quit.</blockquote>
<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
That's the wrong way to think about it[...]</blockquote>]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 02 Nov 2013 19:02:21 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by MAR5</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476170</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Setsul often tends to make things more difficult than they are and he also talks more than a girl.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 02 Nov 2013 18:50:34 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by HR</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476169</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[so basically you jump higher]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 02 Nov 2013 18:48:20 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Schmuse</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476168</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Setsul</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
I'm fine with ignoring scales in this case, but you still have to either define the as 1 [unit of scale] if you didn't define it as x. That's what I mean't with "Unless you predefined the height of a normal jump as 1 [unit of scale]".</blockquote>
Unit of LENGTH.

		<blockquote>To go back to your full previous statement "Well, surely if to you x+x=2x warrants its own line in the context of a calculation (in which btw x is completely unnecessary)" : x+x=2x indeed warrants it's own line in the context of a <strong>proof</strong> otherwise it would be incomplete.</blockquote>
The proof is ACTUALLY incomplete because he never defined what x is (number, vector or whatever rank tensor would all fit x+x=2x). That's what an actual mathematician would complain about in the very first line.
You understood x to be a number without question, so surely 2x=x+x (the defining property of multiplying a number something by 2) is NOT needed in the calculation.

		<blockquote>Defining an arbitrary unit is never more natural than defining another arbitrary unit.
[...]Seeing something that better fits your line of thought as more natural might be natural for you or a lot of other humans, but that doesn't mean that your way of thinking seems natural to any other person. The only reason why two different persons might think alike and therefore each others line of thoughts seems natural to the other one is that they both live in the same world so they might have experienced the same conditions in a similar way.
</blockquote>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_unit
Ofc units can be natural if we use outside facts to define them.

This is not as pronounced in this case, though, but I would still argue since literally nobody was interested in the extra height gained relative to a single jump, using the full (w/o Winger) jump height is the obvious choice.



		<blockquote>The way of solving the problem doesn't have to be "more natural" for the one solving the problem to be "more natural", it could also be more similar to the nature of the problem itself to be "more natural". In other words why wouldn't be the units of the world the problem comes from "more natural" than arbitrarily defined ones? Why aren't hammer units "more natural"?</blockquote> Yea, that's just gibberish...


		<blockquote>Claiming that your way of thinking is the only right one, do you know the implications of this?</blockquote> I didn't you're making shit up now. Good time for me to quit.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 02 Nov 2013 18:22:52 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Scissors-HL</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476158</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[yes]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 02 Nov 2013 16:49:35 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Setsul</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476157</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
That's the wrong way to think about it, what I would actually be doing is setting the unit of length to the non-double-jump height of the Scout. Btw a more natural scale of the problem would actually be to define the unit of length to be the full double-jump height, or "x=0.5" in your terms.
What I was actually arguing for was that since the final result is a dimensionless quantity, you can just ignore scales completely.</blockquote>
I'm fine with ignoring scales in this case, but you still have to either define the as 1 [unit of scale] if you didn't define it as x. That's what I mean't with "Unless you predefined the height of a normal jump as 1 [unit of scale]".

To go back to your full previous statement "Well, surely if to you x+x=2x warrants its own line in the context of a calculation (in which btw x is completely unnecessary)" : x+x=2x indeed warrants it's own line in the context of a <strong>proof</strong> otherwise it would be incomplete.

Defining an arbitrary unit is never more natural than defining another arbitrary unit. Defining the height of the double jump as 1 for a direct comparision of the total jump height might go well with your way of thinking, but for someone constructing a proof the other way round it might seem completely absurd, so they define the height of a single jump as 1 for easier comparision of the normal and heightened single jump.

Seeing something that better fits your line of thought as more natural might be natural for you or a lot of other humans, but that doesn't mean that your way of thinking seems natural to any other person. The only reason why two different persons might think alike and therefore each others line of thoughts seems natural to the other one is that they both live in the same world so they might have experienced the same conditions in a similar way.

You didn't even consider this and just arbitrarily defined your way of thinking as "more natural". We can even take this one step further: The way of solving the problem doesn't have to be "more natural" for the one solving the problem to be "more natural", it could also be more similar to the nature of the problem itself to be "more natural". In other words why wouldn't be the units of the world the problem comes from "more natural" than arbitrarily defined ones? Why aren't hammer units "more natural"?


Never tell someone (who even came to the same conclusion) that his way of thinking is wrong. Claiming that your way of thinking is the only right one, do you know the implications of this?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 02 Nov 2013 16:48:10 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Schmuse</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476146</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Setsul</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Unless you predefined the height of a normal jump as 1</blockquote>
That's the wrong way to think about it, what I would actually be doing is setting the unit of length to the non-double-jump height of the Scout. Btw a more natural scale of the problem would actually be to define the unit of length to be the full double-jump height, or "x=0.5" in your terms.
What I was actually arguing for was that since the final result is a dimensionless quantity, you can just ignore scales completely.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 02 Nov 2013 13:33:08 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Setsul</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476077</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Schmuse</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Well, surely if to you x+x=2x warrants its own line in the context of a calculation (in which btw x is completely unnecessary) then figuring out if better hit chance or more +damage is better to maximize your DPS must seem like a Herculean task.</blockquote>
Unless you predefined the height of a normal jump as 1 the x is necessary to represent the jump height.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 01 Nov 2013 19:05:56 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by MAR5</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476075</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[So I tried winger in a scrim on granary and it's just glorious. Fighting scouts on their catwalk when their combo just arrived to mid is so satisfying.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 01 Nov 2013 18:58:13 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Schmuse</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-27478/page-2/?recent=476280#post=476074</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Casual</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

It is also why I don't like such RPGs, I want to play, not figure out how to optimize a build. (although in my case it would be figuring out EVs and IVs of my pokémon and maximizing them, took all the fun out of it, but I couldn't get myself to play with any less optimal setup...)</blockquote>
Well, surely if to you x+x=2x warrants its own line in the context of a calculation (in which btw x is completely unnecessary) then figuring out if better hit chance or more +damage is better to maximize your DPS must seem like a Herculean task.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 01 Nov 2013 18:51:40 +0100</pubDate>
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