ETF2L – Latest activity in “Morello (some guy working at Riot Games) talks about TF2 medic (competitive)” https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/ Reply by Dauk https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-2/?recent=409989#post=409989 Quoted from MoZz
To be honest, I don't know why stalemates are considered to be something bad. The team that is better will capitalize on their opponents mistakes to break the stalemate in their favor. If it wasn't for stalemates a match would degenerate to a 24/7 dm fest, where positioning i.e. makes a minor difference.
I think he said that stalemates are just a result of a bad game design, in this case that ubers can be only countered by other ubers. Quoted from Enef
I do find it interesting that a high level employee in Riot watched Competitive TF2 for a while, maybe another mixup match player there?
Well he is leading champion designer for lol, so yeah I guess if your job is to balance champions then you should explore different games with differents styles and so.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409989 Sun, 23 Sep 2012 01:33:25 +0200 Reply by CrashSite https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-2/?recent=409989#post=409977 Quoted from choiie
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Hmm, the example you used is not that helpful. Both teams didn't have healers. The point he was making that is if something can only be countered by itself then it leads to stalemates. So not only would Dota2 have to be shown to make all healers 100% necessary without counters, both teams would also have to run it. There is no argument that TF2 is medic focused, but what he fails to take into account is that the counter to medic's uber is killing before he gets it. This is what leads to aggressive play.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409977 Sun, 23 Sep 2012 00:34:34 +0200 Reply by chojje https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-2/?recent=409989#post=409976 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409976 Sun, 23 Sep 2012 00:30:16 +0200 Reply by SPHunt3r https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-2/?recent=409989#post=409974 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409974 Sun, 23 Sep 2012 00:13:29 +0200 Reply by Setlet https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409973 Quoted from Hildreth
[...] When you put it like that Setlet it seems this guy has no idea what he is on about, I don't know if you're just para-phrasing though.
What do you mean? The OP just responded to the first post Morello did, and then Morello responded to him. I didn't take anything out of context.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409973 Sun, 23 Sep 2012 00:02:36 +0200 Reply by davemarsh https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409806 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409806 Sat, 22 Sep 2012 06:53:43 +0200 Reply by JakleIsMe https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409805 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409805 Sat, 22 Sep 2012 06:07:02 +0200 Reply by Ond kaja https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409786 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409786 Sat, 22 Sep 2012 01:13:37 +0200 Reply by Hildreth https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409783 Quoted from Setlet
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When you put it like that Setlet it seems this guy has no idea what he is on about, I don't know if you're just para-phrasing though.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409783 Sat, 22 Sep 2012 00:51:12 +0200 Reply by Pennyfarming https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409780 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409780 Sat, 22 Sep 2012 00:24:13 +0200 Reply by Enef https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409745 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409745 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 21:30:20 +0200 Reply by MoZz https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409743 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409743 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 21:25:21 +0200 Reply by Setlet https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409741 The OP:
I come back and I start a Tf2/ Lol Healer debate. Yay Anyways, I have to disagree with this, Morello. From my experience, competitive play in TF2, as well as most game multiplayer games, is all about strength in numbers. If you pick of 2 or 3 team members, it doesn't matter that their ubercharge is up. You're team can easily split and/or back up for 8 seconds and then easily wipe the team and capture the objective. In this example, the medic has no value to the team, as the team had no damage. That is to say; all enemy kills are of equal value. And I noticed several people earlier commenting on how airblast is a secondary counter to the uber. Of course, you respond with something along the lines of, 'Pros don't run pyro'. This can't be farther from the truth. I've seen pyro ran as an offclass more often than any other, except the engineer. Also, see highlander competitive play, where all the classes are used. You bring up good points and relate them to Moba's fairly well. However, I think the competitive fps genre, TF2 specifically, is outside of your judgement range. Understandable, considering you work on Moba's for a living.
Morello:
Maybe my insight is outdated here since I've stopped watching the TF2 pro scene a few months back, but in my experience with this: * Pyros are ran as an offclass to counter ubers, and usually ARE being ubered when they do it. * Trading Solly/Scout for your Medic is a loss in a fight. I'd say depending on the fight, you could trade 3/1 if you got their medic and they didn't get yours. The ability to sustain a push (as well as uber) outweighs the other losses. * Scouts exist to sac medics from flanks, largely. * Highlander is MUCH better, though the medic is still most important.
]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409741 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 21:19:54 +0200 Reply by Animal https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409738 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409738 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:55:08 +0200 Reply by Enef https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-22835/page-1/?recent=409989#post=409736 * Medics become the game in skilled play. The entire gameflow is dependent and reliant on the medic, to where killing him or not becomes the central focus. This is because the gameflow relies on them to move action when all else is equal. * Ubercharge is only counterable by another ubercharge, unless one team is significantly better than the other. Anything countered by itself creates a single path to victory. * Constant healing/overhealing changes the entire combat pacing. This exists in WoW, TF2, and if healing were more prevalent, LoL. It invalidates attrition and removes long-term pacing (well I didn't kill that Soldier, but he's at 10% health and therefore 90% easier for a teammate to clean up) and makes burst much more powerful. Simply, it lessens strategic variety. As you guys have seen over LoL's lifespan, any fight that doesn't resolve near-instantly (Counter Strike) can easily result in no change or progress at all. * Medics remove action from second-to-second combat. For FPS, primary gameplay loops are created through positioning, aim, reaction time, movement, map feature exploitation and matchups. The satisfaction of that encounter results in the death of a player one either side. Medics prevent that satisfaction from occurring. * In order to make a healer satisfying, they have to be disproportionately impactful. A Priest in your War3 army can be balanced more easily, because the little Priest doesn't have to derive meaning or satisfaction out of making the life bars go up. But when you ARE that Priest, it has to feel good to create a positive experience - and doing so when your job is resource refilling, it needs to be pretty beast to make that feel noticeable. He's pretty much right, to be honest.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=general&topic=22835&post=409736 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:43:07 +0200