[...] pcw results* if you want to be idiotically precise and be treated like you cant read into lines

Interesting discussion! Pretty much why I like American rules ^_^

[...] "pcw don't mean a dime" Ok I think that's where this conversation can stop, anyone who actually thinks that is an idiot.

Is the following: You are leading 1-0 and win the middlefight on say granary. 8min left and 1 billion dollars for the winner. Right, yet cowardly play here would be not to push, just turtle CP3 as it is easy to defend. It is not very entertaining to spectate nor play. So the few decent solutions for this stalemate we had. 1. The team who holds CP3 will have their uber % slowly fade after few minutes if not used. 2. Roundtime to 3-5 minutes. Obviously this is not really a problem yet, but I could see it becoming as one in the near future. What problems you see with the solutions we came up or do you think the team holding the middle should turtle. Discuss please!

[...] what I was saying in the last part was that the lower division players arent affected by the departure of the prem teams i.e. they loose nothing. a) however out of touch they a(re)ppear theyre still good players who won a lot of both vanilla and non vanilla tourneys and stuff, b) im not sure what you mean when you say they struggle against teams using unlocks, since PCWs dont mean a dime and theyve won plenty of both vanilla and non vanilla tourneys. as far as im aware the only top prem team who are either neutral/pro-unlocks, BB, won only just recently their first LAN at which only 1 'proper' prem team was present :d

[...] why should they be willing to play in a league whose ruleset they dont like to be able to discuss the improvement of the game? The players you're talking about have completely lost touch with the game and are overwhelmed by the unlocks allowed in etf2l and struggle against teams that are adopting different tactics with these unlocks. How can they talk about improving the game if they don't even understand the differences between using some unlocks and vanilla? Also if TF2 with ETF2L rules is so different to vanilla TF2, like these players say, then this entire thread is completely useless. I never said the OP is asking ETF2L to change something, don't know where you are getting this from.. :s I don't understand what you said in the last part of your reply. ps: it's lose* (not loose =p)

[...] isnt it a bit hypocritical to say it wont affect (not effect =p) anyone, then say it will about the last lines: " if they are to discuss how to improve/change the game they should be willing to play in a league with a few unlocks without qqing" why should they be willing to play in a league whose ruleset they dont like to be able to discuss the improvement of the game? OP is not saying to ETF2L to do something about the issue unlike in the unlocks discussion, hes talking about the game itself 90% of people who play in ETF2L are below div 3, the fact that the top 2, maybe 3 at a stretch divs have fucked up (when compared to previous seasons) tables doesnt affect them. they dont even loose the spectator value these games had, theyre still being played except its called ESL week 1, not ETF2L week