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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;My experience with highlander&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by Sketch</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-2/?recent=247132#post=247132</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I remember playing a lot of 8v8 and 9v9 when Tf2 came out. And tbh it was great fun. Lots of class limits have been tried and tested. I think that your forgetting that the reason that we now have 6v6 in the format we do with these limits in place is because we have mostly all been in the same position as you have before. Discovering the game. 

What has essentially happened is that the competitive scene has evolved to accommodate what has become an even medium. There's more players still than most comp games. But enough so that organising a team isn't too much of a challenge in your spare time. Also the class balancing has worked itself out over time as well. It may well change as time progresses but many combinations of player numbers and class limits have been tried and 6v6 evolved within that. you forget we are in season8 of this league and many other competitions came beforehand.

Give 6v6 a chance is my advice. I think you may come to appreciate it as it really is just an evolution of the game over time. Also if a highlands league is wanted by enough people. The admin at etf2l have always tried their best to accommodate the best they can to the players.Xx]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:57:53 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Stranger</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-2/?recent=247132#post=247126</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I'm sorry to say but you just haven't looked for the cups well enough. There where loads of them about 2 years a go. Etf2l has had 2cups wich even had many top players participating. There were even a couple of 9vs9 leagues (not in etf2l) at the start of this game. 

9vs9 as many people said might be fun in the lower skill levels. But as you get higher and higher many classes get shut down by others easily. Say for example spy, engineer will always get destroyed by the other team if they play like a team. And other classes like pyro and sniper are very situational and won't have that much of a use for most of the time as scout or demoman would have had. That's why in 6vs6 all tough every class is allowed, only for of them get played constantly.

6vs6 is also a lot more fast paced since you don't get that much spam. It's a lot easier to flank, thre are loads of different strategical posibilaties since you can pick the classes depending on the situation and they're all limited to 2 except for demo and medic, but that only makes it more fun to play.

Playing as a team is also a lot more fun since you don't have those limitations that you would in highlander. The whole team can get to mid at around the same time, it's a lot better to coordinate 6vs6 pushes then 9vs9. 

In fact if you would play highlander in top tier level where every team would have top notch team work and skill, the game would get rather stale. Since every entrance would be covered, there would always be a sentry to take down, wich would be defended by 3 people an so on. Just ask top players who've played both 9vs9 and 6vs6

9vs9 is something i can find fun playing every now and then, but if i got to play it like i do 6vs6 i'd probably get boored very quickly.

I think that 9vs9 hass simply got so popular because every one got atracted to it by tf2.com announcing it as a pub community competition an for the medals. And the fact that in 9vs9 every class gets played all the time made it appealing for pr0 pub spys and pyros.


 And before you ask i've played both quite a lot : )]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:27:20 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by strut</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-2/?recent=247132#post=247119</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from this is evil evil</i>
		<blockquote>In my opinion, the current game modes in competitive TF2 is boring and i think thats why there is so few that actually want to play TF2 on the competitive scene. </blockquote>

That's right, soon there won't be enough teams to even have a 6v6 league. It's clearly dying :P 

As for "something missing" from 6v6, it's your personal opinion and I suspect a pretty superficial one (the "all classes involved" comment). The class restrictions (both number and type) in 6v6 allow a different sort of teamplay experience to emerge. It evolved over time, there was once 2 demos allowed, some leagues played 7v7 with 2 medics. The 6v6 format was not just made up on the spot. 

Regarding highlander being more fun to watch, in my expereince teams push up in a block even on cp maps in highlander. Routes are well plugged. That is more like trench warfare and it is in my opinion boring to watch. In 6v6 the battle lines are much more fluid and the game is more dynamic. Defensive lines can be penetrated or flanked easier, that is more interesting to watch imo.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:44:24 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by fisk</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246729</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from this is evil evil</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
And i have never claimed there was any conspiracy amongst the old school TF2 gamers. I can only speak from my experience from TF2lobby where i've met a couple, and i was referring to them. Of course you can say, i'm generalising a bit, but it's a bit hard when you come in, new to the competitive scene, and in fact all of the "old school" gamers seems more or less disgruntled over the highlander league for some reason.
</blockquote>

Just like you have your point of view on 6v6 people have their point of view on 9v9. I've played highlander for a little fair bit (albeit long time ago, before there was 'free medal tournaments' around). I like it, but for a competetive gameplay I prefer 6v6 any day of the week. This is what the world is like, some have one opinion some another, some may even be of the opinion that highlander and 6v6 stinks balls and there should be an arena tournament.

IF you want to do something about it I suggest putting down the effort to try and organize cups, tournaments, laddermatches and a league of your own, or help ETF2L with the same. That way you can ensure yourself there's always someone willing to put down the energy to make sure that highlander is fairly represented. IF people want to play highlander, they will come. If not, they won't. Simple as that, noone is forcing anyone.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:56:56 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by tramsig</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246723</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Well, you have some good points, and if the activity in the highlander ladder increases after the tournament ends I think we should have a Highlander league on ETF2L.
But I am afraid that the succes with the tournament is only because it was advertised on teamfortress.com(and the medal).

Btw, stop clanstacking on trelle!!! ;)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:42:51 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Mandse</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246709</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from G-Mang</i>
		<blockquote> is just outright false. 100%. Highlander was available everywhere, people tried it for a while, and then everyone realized that it doesn’t work at higher skill levels and has much slower gameplay overall than 6v6. This isn’t some conspiracy of elite “old school” competitive players trying to avoid highlander replacing 6v6. Many of them tried highlander at some point..</blockquote>

I've never noticed any highlander like leagues, for the past 2 years i have been playing. All i have been seeing is 6vs6 and 1on1 Soldier cups. So maybe i didn't search long enough, or else the organizers of the league didn't advertise their league as well as they could have.
And i have never claimed there was any conspiracy amongst the old school TF2 gamers. I can only speak from my experience from TF2lobby where i've met a couple, and i was referring to them. Of course you can say, i'm generalising a bit, but it's a bit hard when you come in, new to the competitive scene, and in fact all of the "old school" gamers seems more or less disgruntled over the highlander league for some reason.

These are merely my point of views, and are not neccessarily facts.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:32:03 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Tikcus</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246562</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[You'd stand more chance of lobbying for a 6v6 or 5v5 CL1 league, probably more fun than 9v9 CL1 as you don't know what classes the opposition will run.

like others have posted getting 9 players together is a logistical nightmare]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:05:47 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Cycl4mate</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246532</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I think the highlander tournament is perfectly doing it's job in getting people interested in competitive tf2 since it forms a bridge between "pub" and "pro" plus it introduces players to a league site.

I do not think making highlander the new 6v6 would do anything but split the competitive community in two major halves. Not to mention, organizing and running a highlander team on high levels is much harder than doing so for a six player team.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:59:24 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Nick</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246531</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Dummy</i>
		<blockquote>1) as said before, impossible to get 9 players on together for more than 1 night a week
2) comms are horrid, 9 people on mumble, minus perhaps the engie, is just eugh
3) it's, as in pubs, 80% spam and holding chokes for a stalemate and 20% of actually doing something
4) as said before, opinion does not = fact
5) almost no coordination due to 9 players, no teamwork except some basics, turns out to be boring after the initial shine of it</blockquote>
The engineer in UT is possibly the loudest person in the team. I can assure you everyone knows when there's a spy sapping his shit xD

But yeah, I agree with pretty much everyone above me. I'm in both a highlander and a 6v6 team. And while Highlander IS fun, it's something I wouldn't want to play all the time. It get incredibly stale after a few games unlike 6v6 which is a lot more fast paced.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:50:47 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by stwn</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246528</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[1) as said before, impossible to get 9 players on together for more than 1 night a week
2) comms are horrid, 9 people on mumble, minus perhaps the engie, is just eugh
3) it's, as in pubs, 80% spam and holding chokes for a stalemate and 20% of actually doing something
4) as said before, opinion does not = fact
5) almost no coordination due to 9 players, no teamwork except some basics, turns out to be boring after the initial shine of it]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:40:24 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by skeej</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246525</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Words of wisdom, G-Mang. As with most things, the general public (YOU) is at fault, not the organisations at the top. It's all a matter of demand/supply.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:22:42 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by G-Mang</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246523</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[OP, highlander leagues have been around for years. I dunno about in EU, but in NA, almost all of them have died off due to unpopularity. This...
<i>Quoted from this is evil evil</i>
		<blockquote>If a league was to be made of highlander like the 6vs6 league, i think it would become very popular, and even better replace the 6vs6 with 9vs9 highlander in competitive TF2.</blockquote>
... is just outright false. 100%. Highlander was available everywhere, people tried it for a while, and then everyone realized that it doesn't work at higher skill levels and has much slower gameplay overall than 6v6. This isn't some conspiracy of elite "old school" competitive players trying to avoid highlander replacing 6v6. Many of them tried highlander at some point.

If anything, it's the fault of players like yourselves who champion the highlander format but completely failed to take part in it unless you were catered to directly by Valve and given the promise that no competitive players would pose a serious challenge to you (something that can't be replicated). For years, almost every topic in SPUF I've seen that's gone along the lines of "competitive players don't get it and should play highlander" has been responded to with "there ARE competitive highlander leagues, what are you talking about?" And, sure enough, those same people who complained about 6v6 over highlander almost never joined up, even though it was free and just about the lowest barrier of entry in the entire competitive fps scene.

If you want to play highlander, I highly encourage you to do so. I will add, however, that the reason it's not popular now is definitely not the fault of "old school" competitive players, and if you play it for a while, you'll probably find (like most other competitive players who tried it) that the format gets old after a season or two.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:17:05 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by adam-skyride</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246516</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Watching 6v6 on STV. On your own. Without casters. yup. Boring as hell.

Watching it with friends on mumble, while listening to d2m and Pledge commentating it and cracking terrible jokes throughout the whole game, while appreciating some amazingly play by the teams playing? Thats fun.

I'm glad you've enjoyed highlander, although it sounds to me like you're exactly the type of person who'd love 6v6 if you took the time to get into it. :)

The i39 and i40 finals (having actually been at both) were probably some of the most amazing things I've ever seen. Everyone who was there loved every minute of it, just the atmosphere, the attitude of the players, the amazing clutches, everything, it was totally perfect.

6v6 isn't TF2, its something completely different that has the potential to be absolutely lightyears better.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:00:34 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by waebi</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246510</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[it may be nicer to watch and play, but it just is not practical - simply because 6 players is pretty much the most you can coordinate to get online on certain days and practice, which is what pretty much makes it interesting: the competition.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 21:44:11 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by TANC_Warmaster</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-14444/page-1/?recent=247132#post=246508</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from this is evil evil</i>
		<blockquote>My clan, DB, has just been knocked out from the highlander tournament, because of an error made by an admin. We have accepted this, and we of course understand the huge work the admins have done throughout the highlander tournament and we respect that. Overall we have enjoyed the competitive scene of TF2. Thought i would share my voice, an average pub gamer, on how it has been and such, and of the highlander game mode vs the 6vs6 game mode.

First, the interest there seemed to be for the highlander tournament was overwhelming. So many teams and so many players from around the world, it's so amazing how the correct tournament with the correct rules can get people to play competitive in TF2. In my opinion, the current game modes in competitive TF2 is boring and i think thats why there is so few that actually want to play TF2 on the competitive scene. Personally i think it's so boring watching a 6vs6 match on SourceTV as it is now, and i've never enjoyed it one bit, because i've always felt like something was missing and there was a certain disbalance. Highlander games are so fun to watch, since all class come in to play, and you need to use all classes to your advantage as best as possible. I mean.. this is what made TF2 fun in the first place to begin with. The wide variety of how many ways you can play this game, with all 9 classes. Bringing a tournament together where all 9 classes was supposed to be used in 9vs9 was a great move, and it has really relit the competitive TF2 scene in my opinion. If a league was to be made of highlander like the 6vs6 league, i think it would become very popular, and even better replace the 6vs6 with 9vs9 highlander in competitive TF2.
Many of the "old school" TF2 gamers that i have stumbled upon in the TF2 lobby, were not enthusiastic about the highlander one bit, and quite frankly, i can't understand that. Maybe they were actually afraid that 9vs9 would become more popular, or maybe they just can't accept the change. The fact of the matter is, that 9vs9 is way more funny to play in, way more funny to watch, and as it is right now, hell of alot more popular and appealing than 6vs6.


As said before, overall we enjoyed our time in the highlander league, and we salute the admins for their great work, for putting this tournament together.</blockquote>

Opinion != fact

I for one enjoy watching and playing 6v6 games more.

But ye, nice to hear you enjoyed the tournament, I'm sure there might come a highlander league after this or you can still play at the ladder if you don't feel like switching to 6v6.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 21:38:13 +0100</pubDate>
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