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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;Only 1 FAN allowed&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by eoN</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-13/?recent=96077#post=96077</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<blockquote>lol @ "wow i no this guy whos rly gud at TF2 and he agrees wit me so im rite" mentality... Tools... -.-</blockquote>

Whos said that? Koitje berserker and vali are all crap...

&#60;3 :DDDD &#60; be safe, wear a safety smily.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:25:33 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by adam-skyride</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-13/?recent=96077#post=96070</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<blockquote>When this is over, let's all drink a e-beer together :D</blockquote>

Ye, I think it should be on Koeitje! :D

**safety smile**]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:54:39 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Relentless</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-13/?recent=96077#post=96068</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<blockquote>this awful debate has been going on for like 4 months. absolutely none of you are saying a single new thing, everything you are typing and posting in such a fervor has been posted 15 times before, and many of those 15 are probably by yourselves.

come up with something new ffs this is boring as shit :(</blockquote>

There's nothing new to be said anymore tbh. Everything's been said and we're just waiting for the admin's decision. We're only discussing for the sake of discussing :X

When this is over, let's all drink a e-beer together :D]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:47:57 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Aye Doc</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-13/?recent=96077#post=96056</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[this awful debate has been going on for like 4 months. absolutely none of you are saying a single new thing, everything you are typing and posting in such a fervor has been posted 15 times before, and many of those 15 are probably by yourselves.

come up with something new ffs this is boring as shit :(]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:07:46 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Danzeru</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-13/?recent=96077#post=96046</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[lol @ "wow i no this guy whos rly gud at TF2 and he agrees wit me so im rite" mentality... Tools... -.-]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=feedback&#038;topic=4943&#038;post=96046</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:38:00 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by bulletproofsmurf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-13/?recent=96077#post=96044</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[well then you should stop jumping down peoples throats for either a) thinking the fan isnt op and b) thinking the lower skill requirment for the fan doesnt require a ban.

try not to get too personal mate saying youre 6 year old sister or whatever could understand an opinion, which you think is fact. we have already demonstrated that a large number of people disagree with you, and beserker, and vali. 

The point is that this a very divisive issue, and despite the authority you grant the opinions of beserker, vali and yourself, there is no hard and fast rule as to whether it should be banned. you guys think the advantage the fan gives you is game breaking, the rest of us do not. accept that what you hold is an opinion, and not fact]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:23:13 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Koeitje</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-13/?recent=96077#post=96041</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>
If something is bugged, it doesnt automatically mean it's gamebreaking.</blockquote> Which is exactly what I said</blockquote>

I know but Koeitje seems to misunderstand you. I just wanted to clear that up.</blockquote>

I'm fully aware of what Racio is saying (we had so many conversations about the weapon), he knows what is wrong with it. He feels it is not gamebreaking, I do. That's the difference. I pointed you to his post because he doesn't use "lol l2p" arguments.

<blockquote>i only meant beserker not vali. that was an accident on my part, since iv never spoken to you</blockquote>
Ask berserker then, he feels the same.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:08:36 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Koeitje</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96040</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<blockquote> Would competitive TF2 still have the "default" 2 scout setup? Would people still be buttsore about the scatter being OP? </blockquote>

Prob not.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:07:22 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by bulletproofsmurf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96037</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[a very objective argument =)

i like your point about people not liking change.

i imagine if the sticky launcher had been a second weapon launched after the release of the game, there would be loads of raging and a thread such as this rather unpleasant one]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:50:43 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Danzeru</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96033</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Both sides seem to have some fairly convincing arguments and some very flawed ones but I'm not gonna join the flamewar and start picking each of these out...

Has anybody thought what would have happened if the FaN came first at release and the scattergun came out with the scout update? Would competitive TF2 still have the "default" 2 scout setup? Would people still be buttsore about the scatter being OP? People hate change and like to be set in their ways, I didn't really want to use that as an argumentative point but it's always interesting to theorise.

Personally I'm a scatterscout and always will be but I voted in favour of keeping the FaN in the game because I don't think that it breaks the game. Yeah it has it's issues, as do a lot of things in this game (can't remember who said this) but imagine the demo had say... something else for weapon slot 2 and the sticky launcher got introduced with the demo update... Imagine the rage and the flames people. Imagine. But stickies have been in the game since release though they have been tweaked beyond belief since then. So people accept them and work with them introducing things like the 1 demo limit in competitive. 

And - again - personally when fighting an excellent scout, would rather him take FaN than scatter as doublejumping out of the "bounce" effect can screw over even the best scouts.

I'm not really conveying a point here, just putting some ideas out there.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:40:06 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by bulletproofsmurf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96029</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[part of the problem is that the people on the side of banning it just reiterate the arguments as to why fan scouts have an advantage. at no point have i disagreed that the fan scouts have some advantages. never.

what i dispute is that this advantage justifies it being completely banned. a VERY different point

just wanted to clarify that as much of this thread is taken up by people arguiing whether the fan is op or not. irrelevant. its why this advantage should result in a ban.

if i have been unclear in this position i apologise]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:22:16 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by bulletproofsmurf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96023</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[i only meant beserker not vali. that was an accident on my part, since iv never spoken to you]]></description>
    	    <guid isPermaLink="false">generator=rsdiscuss&#038;baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&#038;feed=forum&#038;forum=feedback&#038;topic=4943&#038;post=96023</guid>
    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:05:54 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Vali</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96018</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<blockquote>Dude dont quote beserker and vali like you know them or theyre on your side. if you want a list of the counters to the fan then speak to beserker or vali, or the people you seem to think agree with you</blockquote>

The irony of this post, considering I don't believe there is a viable counter to the FaN and you posting as if you know me while telling Koeitje not to do so. I mean seriously, the things that people state as "counters" to the FaN are simply ridiculous. Earlier on for example, telling you to follow him around a corner when he retreats for a reload. Saying to follow the fastest class in the game after he just hit you with a weapon that completely stops your movement. Auto-reload also takes away any delay in reload time, so it takes no additional skill to be reloaded as soon as possible, meaning that his reload time is going to be negligable once you can actually start moving again.

Racio, what do you consider game-breaking? Hitting the medic with a sandman (the thing which completely broke uber, not just stunned 1 potential ubered enemy) takes a lot more skill (and luck) than using the FaN and probably would happen a lot less than say a FaN scout juggling an enemy medic to stop him from retreating. If a weapon is bugged, I see no harm in banning it until it is fixed.

As for how to fix the FaN, I'm honestly at a loss. If you make it how it should work (knockback in the direction that you're hitting them in) then it's inferior to the scattergun because the second shot will be really far away. If you keep the vertical knockback, it's still retardedly easy to use. I honestly don't see how you can know that 1 pellet is enough to juggle them in the same way that hitting them skillfully in the feet with a rocket does and still claim that it's not game-breaking.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:54:27 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by bulletproofsmurf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96013</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[koeitje is gettig a little desperate now. roping in people onto his side who dont even agree with him. racio was bang on the money about the mechanics of the fan. but that wasnt what you were arguiing. you were arguiing that these mechanics should result in a ban? something that racio opposes (correct me if im wrong. i apologise if i misunderstood your meaning).

stop using the argument of "I have no idea how to counter the FAN. therefore the FAN is OP (because if you arent smart enough to work out counters, noone else is either. obviously). therefore FAN should be banned".

Its a complete non sequitur (i dont imagine you even know what that term means. so look it up)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:45:13 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Relentless</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-4943/page-12/?recent=96077#post=96012</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><blockquote>
If something is bugged, it doesnt automatically mean it's gamebreaking.</blockquote> Which is exactly what I said</blockquote>

I know but Koeitje seems to misunderstand you. I just wanted to clear that up.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:44:35 +0200</pubDate>
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