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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;ETF2L 6v6 Season 26 Preseason Cup: Feedback&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by MoistPenguin</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560592</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Zip</i>
		<blockquote>
The overall structure of the cup was okay, the initial group stages were good giving us a chance to test each map. It was a shame that when we were at knockout stages, we were not able to play warmfront as it was a permanent decider map in the games we played and since none of our games went to a decider, we didn't play it and i'm sure this was the same for many other teams. It is likely that this map has an underlined disadvantage in feedback as it will not have been played to a fair proportion in comparison to the other maps featured in the cup.</blockquote>

Thanks for providing such an indepth response. The main two maps of this cup were bagel and edifice as they both had not been tested before and have active developers. Warmfront was run previously by etf2l in s1 and s9, while this was a long time ago and is worth retesting. The developers of the map have longs moved on from it.

We wanted to test bagel and edifice and as such gave them the most play time, warmfront was used as a third map as it had been requested for testing a few times by some prem players.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:30:25 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Zip.</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560588</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[– cp_edifice_rc1 
The format of this map made for an extremely strenuous game... the idea of attack and defence in 6s is proven by this preseason cup not to work. It is hard for blue team to attack C point... we found this last to be extremely hard to do anything with unless you managed to completely wipe the red team (which is very hard to do given blue uber will be used first due to an extreme height advantage to red holding the spire). We found the C capture rate was slow in relation to the red spawn rate as after fights had taken place, it was unlikely that many (if any) blue team members would still be alive to start capping and thus an entire red team would respawn to fight one or two half health members of blue. In all the games we played and from feedback from other teams we played, the C point is extremely red sided. Points A and B also have similar issues, red can simply hold in the connecting space and rotate points accordingly, and because of the slow capture rate of both points it is extremely hard to maintain any ground gained on each point. Overall we found this map awful to play on either side, as every team we played either got rolled extremely quickly having cap time on both points and a red team wipe, pushing forward to last before red spawners to gain the high ground... or pushes from blue side continuing to fail over and over (we held C for almost 13 minutes avoiding 7 pushes, and held B for 8 in another game). Also the 6v6 format of classes is completely gone, we didn't face a single team that didn't run an off class and it made for game play relying totally on the off classes to initiate pushes (snipers or spies looking to drop the heavy or medic generally). Although it is a viable option to run an off class in 6v6 (and it happens across various maps on last holds), using a permanent off class seems like a forced fixture in this map. For these reason I hope this map is not added to the map pool, but I'm glad we tried it in the pre-season cup to establish whether or not it would work (which it definitely did not).

– koth_bagel_b3a
Bagel proved to be a very good map, with an even playing field on both sides. A difficult map to forward hold on, meaning that fights were generally based over the central point. The map does not really favour any particular class and fights were often very back and forth over who was holding the objective point making for a close and fast paced game. The structure of the map is very good in that there is equal opportunity for both teams to make good pushes and holds and for us when we played this map, it felt very natural and easy to play on and we enjoyed some close games during the preseason. This is definitely a viable map for the upcoming season, and it is nice to have a new map which really fits with the 6v6 format.

– cp_warmfront
Sadly we were only able to play this map once during the pre-season cup as it was a decider in the playoff brackets. We found that the map was good fun to play on, and a welcome break from the standard 5cp maps we are used to. The map does have a lot of potential. However, the mid fights would generally be one sided, with whichever team gaining more positioning and and more numbers onto mid first generally winning. Saying this, the variation of access points to the mid did mean that the mid would need co-ordination to win. The second point is quite hard to hold, however still has some viable holds to make it plausible. The last is very open in the centre, and the point is very far away from the access points into the mid, meaning that if you took an entrance which wasn't the closest one (on the right), you ran the risk of using an uber, dropping players to spam and a fighting a counter uber without yours before any fights really begins. We found that pushing last was fine however, so long as you approached it correctly and with a thought out plan, and this also goes for the holding aspect of the last point.

The structure/schedule of the cup:

The overall structure of the cup was okay, the initial group stages were good giving us a chance to test each map. It was a shame that when we were at knockout stages, we were not able to play warmfront as it was a permanent decider map in the games we played and since none of our games went to a decider, we didn't play it and i'm sure this was the same for many other teams. It is likely that this map has an underlined disadvantage in feedback as it will not have been played to a fair proportion in comparison to the other maps featured in the cup.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:42:10 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by yrr</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560545</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Thanks for all the feedback on koth_bagel guys, I just put out a new version based on feedback/observing games, hopefully it makes it more fun to play.
http://www.teamfortress.tv/post/696202/koth-bagel-name-pending]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2017 03:14:24 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Tavi_Banana</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560537</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I would like to see warmfront in the list of the maps for season 26]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2017 11:00:29 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by PhaNtom666</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560535</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[+1 to what ash said]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2017 02:33:02 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by garrappachc</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560531</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[- bagel: really fun, definetly more enjoyable compared to product;
- edifice: I'm not a fan of A/D maps, for me it's the same aids as gravelpit. A/D is basically not for 6s, at least not with maps we currently have;
- warmfront: I like it a lot, real fun. I actually like last, you just need to know how to defend it.

I'd also very much like to see cp_cardinal in the pool, the map from the previous cup.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2017 00:46:50 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Chill Colins</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560529</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[-Bagel:
Best map of the cup by far and really enjoyable to play. Should be added to the map pool imo or at least have it in the vote for next season's map pool. Plays really well, sniper is not too op, soldier is not too up (both compared to product).

-Edifice:
Interesting and fresh format, but as pointed out before games take way too long to finish as there is no timelimit. Pushing C literally gave everyone aids as the cap time decreases as fast as usain bolt and the spawn timers for red are simply too short.

-Warmfront:
Not bad but not good either, and definitely not better than the existing 5cp maps.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2017 23:04:15 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Persei</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560515</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I would really love to see bagel sometime in the season. The map has a lot of potential in my opinion and it is much better than viaduct. Very intense and almost no stalemates. Every class feels enjoyable, unlike viaduct where being soldier is pretty much a pain in the ass.

Regarding edifice, personally I like it though C is pretty pretty hard to capture, they should increase the cap time. I wouldn't mind playing it either, but I would rather play gravelpit instead, though as Mould said, the format was dropped not because gpit was a bad map, in fact, I think we all agree it was good but we couldn't be arsed to schedule a pcw and spend 1 hour playing it.

Warmfront... I like the map overall as well, but honestly that last point is too big so it is difficult to push. I would love to see other maps coming back though. Obscure and Freight would be amazing.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:07:44 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by ashnazg</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-2/?recent=560592#post=560514</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[- bagel was really good, probably better than viaduct. 
 

- warmfront and edifice, meh at best.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2017 23:31:29 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Netsky</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-1/?recent=560592#post=560511</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[- missing Preseason Cup Home page to look up the relevant info, instead of searching for the news

- bagel was fun to play for a KOTH map. I prefer it over product. Interesting transition area between spawn and middle.

- edifice is rather weird but I am glad I had the chance to play it. Reminds me A LOT of gravelpit (not only because of the gamemode, but the general design). could be viable for the season.

- warmfront was ... well I have known the map before and I simply don't like certain areas, like the last cp. Could be a little bit smaller in area. Middle is a lot of fun imho :)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:50:12 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by BumFreeze</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-1/?recent=560592#post=560502</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[bagel is good and edifice has potential if the spire is less of a troll maze]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2017 00:02:03 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by kandarainbowsoul</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-1/?recent=560592#post=560489</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[– koth_bagel_b3a
This map is by far my favorite from the preseason cup. It's not as scout-dominated as Product and also less open, but it is something that should not replace Product but still get in. My team and me love Bagel so far and we hope it gets into the season.

– cp_warmfront
While I don't downright dislike it, there are some significant flaws with this map that need to be catered for it to be a viable option. For 1, there's some pretty big sightlines to mid from rollout, making sniper to mid considerable, for 2 the high ground over the point is unbalanced, but also too easy to fall off, and finally the last doesn't have many advantageous positions, leaving it very open and worse than Reckoner.

– cp_edifice_rc1
I really do not think this map belongs into 6s, as it is basically a bigger, more open version of Gravelpit. With the scarce amount of players, one point has to be given up, and makes skill in offclasses basically necessary. If a different gamemode than 5cp or koth makes it into 6v6, it's not through this map.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2017 15:59:40 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Mould</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-1/?recent=560592#post=560481</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Twiggy</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

But my main reason to not have it in a season is that when gravelpit (or turbine) was around, nobody would scrim it until the official week. When it was done, nobody would play it again until the next season. .</blockquote>

as a side note I think this is mostly down to the AB BA decider format that afaik has always been used - it never fit in scrim scheduling, and it's not fun to play the same map 3 times. It can end up being between 45 and 60 mins, that's just not acceptable, and not only that, if you are going to roll a team, it's still gonna be 30 mins, which isn't fun for anyone really.   

the point is no matter which way you go ab ba decider means ad maps sometimes take twice as long, that's why nobody ever scrimmed on it, or ever really will unless something changes. It's basically wasted scrim time. 

I really think in order to ever bring AD back, it should be just one round, it's arguable that this isn't fair for whoever has to defend/attack first, but you still have that issue on the decider round anyway(?)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:01:29 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by elLetto</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-1/?recent=560592#post=560480</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[cp_warmfront:
Map generally works, only dislike the last that is very big, bland and boring. The low ceiling makes suicides very hard and all the entrances are basically the same and on the same height. Also there is hardly any ammo. Also sniper sightlines on middle.
cp_edifice:
Very interesting map imo., I like that a Hold is feasable on both A and B, rotating between those is also very easy. A/D in general leads to a lot of action and is fun to spectate. C has multiple entrances on different heights and an elevated lobby for attackers which i like, at the same time the defenders can claim the lobby and hold from there which makes different holds possible. I would like to see the point cap a lot faster though.
cp_bagel:
I don't like how cramped this map is, and also the nipple in the middle makes walking over the point as demo not feasable because you're on lowground, don't see anything and people can get onto you very easily. This makes midfights pretty awkward.
I like the idea of fighting vertically over the point as oppposed to horizontally on viaduct, another positive aspect is that the big lobby area allows for forward holds
For changes i'd like to see the point lowered a bit, as well as the mid more stretched out.

I think edifice with faster cap time on c as well as warmfront with a complete last redesign would both work in a season.

Don't make polls which maps to add/remove, it would result in the same scenario as the end of season popularity awards. The gameplay should be orientated by the way it's played by the top players because they know what aspects make a map fast paced and fun to play and spectate.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2017 11:37:38 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Sprite</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-33714/page-1/?recent=560592#post=560474</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[After playing the first round of the cup (group stages i guess) I felt that the gravelpit style map was the most fun to play

-Cp_warmfront

My beef with this map is that you can snipe far back on mid deep into 2nd point so if you lose a round and don't win the next mid the team with the round advantage can just not push, put a heavy on the house and have a sniper and it means before the losing team even gets anywhere close to getting onto mid they're taking damage, soldiers can spam doorways and completely shut down the map from miles away, this isn't a good map for 6s when people already complain about the stalematey meta there is

-Koth_Bagel_b3a

I liked this map but I felt it was a bit odd to play and that viaduct was a much better koth map (and probably always will) its too big and open and 2/3 of the entrances to mid leave you on lowground so it's only really viable to push out one entrance with your combo aswell as the other 2 being again in a huge sniper sightline, its good in the fact that it's open for soldiers to roam around on and theres alot of different highground to hold which made it more balanced for other classes, i'd like some of the highground to be more accessible by other classes though *cough*med*cough* and there to be more ammo and health kits around the map and to shorten the walk from spawn to mid, theres a big clusterfawk of connectors from spawn to mid which are so unneccesary and the mid entrance to mid can only be accessed by going through the left doorway anyway so it's pointless the space before that, if the creator was going for easier cap times and less contesting from the opponent he should just extend the spawn times or make it cap faster.

-Cp_edifice_rc1

Personally I really enjoyed playing edifice because there was no room for stalemates, the blue team had to push whilst the red team defended if they wanted to win, i'd like to see either this or gravelpit in next seasons map pool, it proposes the same idea as payload maps in the sense that one team has to make things happen and not just never peak or push for 30 minutes. the map is really open but it's easy to rotate your combo over to each point if you hold correctly and there is enough flank routes to each point that the enemy team can also do the same meaning there is always going to be diversity in the strategy as in holds or pushes and how teams approach each point which I found to be the most fun part of the map, there is alot of cluster as well though mostly to deny sniper sightlines so i'd maybe like some rework on that or some changes to the entrances to each point from both attacking and defending teams as it seems that if you're on one point as the defender you need to watch a large amount of things on each point.

The spire also I feel should be changed, if you fall off it's a really long walk for both teams to get back up, pushing the spire on blue is awkward to get your heals on top of the spire so if you don't suicide players on the point it takes a complete wipe from red to really take control of.

If I had to drop one map and pick up another in next season i'd drop reckoner and add edifice or bagel (maybe both tbh could use more maps in the pool)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2017 01:51:22 +0100</pubDate>
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