[...] this is basically it, new things get shit talked as the way to be playing isn't so obvious and players have to think

...

[...] -snake has more than two strategies (so does gullywash but I sort of understand why you might think that). -I disagree with you saying the second point is the most dynamic. Like it has different levels of height, but the strong inability to push onto it from last, alongside the fast cap time on last itself just causes problems imo -you talk about the benefits of the many strategies of badlands mid, but sunshine has so much variety on mids because of the size of the mid and number of obstacles -In what way does metalworks have the worst last? (facts please) To be honest I just want to see a mix up of the maps. I would agree granary feels quite stale, but it feels like sunshine gets shit talked just because it's relatively new. Like it would've been interesting to see whether, if sunshine got the approval and stream coverage that reckoner has had, would people accept it more because of the top players accepting it.

At first i thought Chronos and Crayon were trolling. How can you replace 1st/2nd best map in the rotation? The mid fight on badlands is one of best, at least it has more than 2 strategies (gully, snake...). The second point is unarguably the most dynamic point in the game. And last is easy to cap, which is good for the map flow (more rounds, less stalemates). The only weak places of badlands are last-second stalemates and like ~2 splash bugs which heavily outweighted by positive aspects of the map. In s23 weakest maps were granary>sunshine>product. Metalworks is almost as stalematey as granary and has the worst last (facts). Sunshine has the worst mid (too big, too many objects to fight on) and worst mid-second transitions (in my opinion). I think its worth a shot trying reckoner instead sunshine/granary.

[...] Yes. Very much how badwater is to highlander. I doubt we'd see it taken out of the map pool anytime soon though, for the very same reasons why badlands won't be taken out of 6s.

[...] Is this another way of saying that it is the map that most feels uncreative and stuck in its ways as well as the things I've said? O_o

I dislike badlands aswell, but I always think to myself "Who am I to judge with div 5/6/open experience". Never took the time to learn the map, never took the time to care for the map. But I do feel the whole 6s meta is more or less revolving around badlands in terms of class composition. To always have at least 5 players with easy access onto spire. No other 6s map have a capture point that is so hard to reach without rocket/sticky jumping or being a scout. So I would still vote to keep it in, just because it is such a 6s staple that is promoting to use the 6s meta classes. Afterall 6s is about utilising whatever classes work the best at the time and no other map promotes the cookie-cutter classes the way badlands do.

[...] Its badlands. [...] But why the fuck badlands, best map in sixes, dust2 of tf2? And whats the point of fresh maps, if gameplay on them is dull?

actually, a decent 6s map without any issues with it would be preferred tbh.

It'd be nice to see fresh maps in a stagnant map pool, in a game that's slowly dying from the repetitive nature of it

[...] Yea, like wonder said, let's remove the best map from mappool and replece it with a hl map, so the hl fags (puke) can fuck off

-badlands +badwater similar names so I thought it's good idea heh :D