ETF2L – Latest activity in “Suggestion: Highlander Season 9 all tiers use Swiss System”

ETF2L – Latest activity in “Suggestion: Highlander Season 9 all tiers use Swiss System” https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/ Reply by schabdaniel https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-2/?recent=543987#post=543987 privilege of finding out who all their opponents are, and getting to plan/hype themselves in advance for respective matches. It's like an additional "grats, you made it into prem", so to speak. From the perspective of outsiders, the fact that all the enemies known beforehand, is positively relevant in the way that they can guess and discuss about the flow of the season. If they don't have that knowledge beforehand, they'll just start guessing and discussing a bit later. This is a bit of a non-factor for prem though, because there's only 8 teams and the hype will be more about who plays, not who plays who when. In any way, the end result is a write-up one or two days before stating who plays each other and when. This is, IMO, what the majority cares about and the only bit of information about the match they'll get right before watching it.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543987 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 12:31:21 +0200 Reply by popcorp https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-2/?recent=543987#post=543984 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543984 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 10:22:05 +0200 Reply by b33p_ https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-2/?recent=543987#post=543982 Quoted from Steve!

Having a slightly different system serves only to differentiate Prem from the rest, in a good way.

I see your point of view as counterpoints to mine. But the last assertion I'm unsure of. Why is this differentiation doing it in a good way? What is a 'good' way of being different (and not the obvious: the reason they're in a higher tier)?]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543982 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:37:28 +0200 Reply by schabdaniel https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-2/?recent=543987#post=543972 Quoted from b33p

Two separate pages for the highlander tables is strange, inefficient and counter intuitive. The league will be more interesting, there will be something to find out every week other than match results, it'll be more fun.

Opinions. Quoted from b33p

Premier teams currently have an advantage over the other tiers in that they see who they play during the whole season.

Prem does not compete with other tiers directly, hence advantages don't matter. Quoted from b33p

Thing is, though, Tryhard eSports actually has a tough week 3 week too, and can't plan to focus Week 4 maps during Week 3 the way Epsi can, giving them a disadvantage Epsi doesn't have to deal with.

Have you seen the maps being played? There's almost no variation. Everyone knows their shit. "Breather weeks" are irrelevant in how you compete in the other weeks. TF2 practice is TF2 practice, doesn't matter if it's on pl_badwater, koth_viaduct or cp_process. Quoted from b33p

Or, if prem was using the same system as every other tier, teams would always be on their toes

If the team needs a surprise factor as motivation to compete at their best, they don't have a place in prem, IMO. Quoted from b33p

Wasn't a key reason Swiss was great was to cut down admins making default times and reading the comments and all that nonsense? If prem used Swiss too you could clearly indicate the best times to play using the system on the site. And yeah, comments can clarify times or preferences (not sure if the ETF2L system has preferences tbh) if that's even necessary.

This is exactly what's being done in Prem at the moment, in the current system. Quoted from b33p

In fact, keeping prem on the old system but removing their wildcards is actually a worse system than before Swiss was changed for the other tiers. So scheduling in prem is harder and more important and crucial now, and we're working in this old system. Throw prem a bone!

Scheduling is easy, the only times scheduling fiascoes happen is when one or both of the teams are lazy and/or don't use match comments. Or, when the leader is struggling internally with finding out his team's availability. Which shouldn't be ETF2L's problem. Quoted from b33p

• Will make prem more interesting to spectate week on week • Should make scheduling easier • Improves league consistency

Prem is already plenty interesting, with good games happening each week. Scheduling is already easy enough, provided you don't alienate yourself from half of your opponents. :) The league is consistent across the majority of its player base. Premiership is supposed to be exclusive and reserved for the best of players. Having a slightly different system serves only to differentiate Prem from the rest, in a good way.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543972 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:39:23 +0200 Reply by Toregant https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543971 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543971 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:19:32 +0200 Reply by schabdaniel https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543970 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543970 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:12:04 +0200 Reply by b33p_ https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543964 Quoted from kKaltUu

We've chosen to exclude premiership from the swiss system to alleviate the randomness per matchweek. The teams are playing for a prize pool and prestige, and having some security in the flow of the season showed (in the past) that teams will have an easier time fielding a strong lineup.

I actually don't know what this means. Knowing who you're playing in week 3 causes your team to have a higher chance of fielding a strong team for week 3. What evidence is there of this? Quoted from kKaltUu

An added problem on top of that is that swiss doesn't work with 8 teams.

It does work. This sentence is incorrect. Quoted from kKaltUu

You need more to provide enough options for the teams to still play other teams within their range.

That's why those 8 are in prem and not scattered throughout the rest of the tiers! This is literally the point in tiers and why there is not having ETF2L as one big Swiss based table! Quoted from kKaltUu

With swiss in a small group you'll end up having the steamrolls at the end of the season

Quoted from Lazybear

Since there are only 8 teams in the group anyways I'd rather admins manually organising top teams to not play vs each other in earliest weeks

Quoted from Selek

I don't understand how the steamrolls would be more prominent at the end of the season, but I'll take your word for it.

If there are streamrolls, and that's a big if (which devalues prem to an extent), they're going to happen in week 2, 4 or 6, or whenever. Not a good reason, for me, but let's say that would be an issue. Teams are seeded at the start of the season anyway, so this will literally only happen the way you say it will if you seed the teams as such. In other words, what you're arguing against is perfectly avoidable, by you (Kaltu). Quoted from kKaltUu

Bottom line is that anything that promotes competitiveness is welcome, as long as it doesn't hinder the teams.

For the record, you haven't shown that it would hinder teams. Quoted from Admirable

Why would you crowbar Swiss in to a division that is specifically designed to run for 7 weeks and have each team play each other once. The Swiss system is a compromise based on the fact that it would take too long for everyone to play everyone in the bigger divisions. You appear to be mad at the scheduling system, but want to bring in an entirely new (and unnecessary) tournament structure to deal with your gripes. You are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Admirable I actually liked the old system but the disparity in the league is what I'm talking about here. The removal of wildcards was not ideal either. But anyway, on the point about the design of the league. Remember Season 4? The league was designed so each team played 5 weeks of games because each division had 6 teams. That was the design. But then in Season 5, the divisions were increased to 8 teams. Oh no! Actually, they just added another 2 weeks of games. Simple! So the whole design aspect is m00t. Again, I liked the old system even though wildcards did fuck us for a few weeks in the past. League consistency is what I'm talking about. Hardly crowbarring! You should work for the Daily Mail m8.]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543964 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 01:26:38 +0200 Reply by Admirable https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543938 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543938 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 19:20:38 +0200 Reply by HartzFartz https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543937 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543937 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 19:16:58 +0200 Reply by Selektionsfaktor https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543934 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543934 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 19:08:57 +0200 Reply by Scissors-HL https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543930 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543930 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:47:29 +0200 Reply by kKaltUu https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543926 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543926 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:08:55 +0200 Reply by Mervin https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543925 Quoted from Muuki

would definitely make it easier for you to default hunt

<3]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543925 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:02:09 +0200 Reply by EmilioEstevez https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543924 generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543924 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 17:31:01 +0200 Reply by lazybear https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-32055/page-1/?recent=543987#post=543922 Quoted from Muuki

would definitely make it easier for you to default hunt

[x] told [ ] not told I think the Swiss system is overall better but at least in high an issue is that everyone plays different opponents and some have easier paths than others (arguably). For prem I think it's critical that every team plays vs all teams in the group. I would find it demotivating to play the same opponents twice during regular season. Since there are only 8 teams in the group anyways I'd rather admins manually organising top teams to not play vs each other in earliest weeks maybe but after regular season everyone will meet in the playoffs anyways]]> generator=rsdiscuss&baseurl=https://staging.etf2l.org&feed=forum&forum=feedback&topic=32055&post=543922 Wed, 16 Sep 2015 17:28:53 +0200