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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;Petition to bring back removed teams from competition&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by dnscodcs</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-8/?recent=532563#post=532563</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[This subject has been adressed multiple times by different members of our staff.

If you still don't get it then you're truly some kind of special

The whole argument isn't really going anywhere, at this point it's just people repeating themselves.

Since this discussion is no longer constructive I'll lock the thread in order to conclude it.

Please refrain from re-creating locked threads, though you can go ahead and start a petition in an attempt to have it re-opened.
I heard those work really well.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:26:47 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Permzilla</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-8/?recent=532563#post=532561</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Not quite sure how you can have read everything Sonny has posted and still not get it. He's destroyed this thread.

From General Rules 3.5:

		<blockquote> If your team is facing extreme lineup changes please contact an admin. </blockquote>]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:16:42 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Eatable</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-8/?recent=532563#post=532556</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[The attitude of a lot of people and especially the admins worries me. Basically saying that those teams broke a rule and therefore they are wrong about everything. If so many people feel that this rule doesn't work and that they're wronged by it then there should be a discussion about it. What worries me even more is that the rule that is enforced doesn't even exist like the admins say it does.

Firsty, as quoted from the rule: "Teams can be qualified as ‘new’ if none or very few of the lineup at the start of the season or cup are still active and participating."
To me, that sounds like having less than 3, or less than 4 original players at most. However, now it's revealed that this rule is enforced if there's fewer than 5, that's not even in the rules.
Now, you can partially blame teams for not inquiring about the exact ammount, but at the same time a rule like this shouldn't ever be strictly enforced like it currently is. Teams are being dropped without chance of discussion or repeal because of a rule which isn't strictly worded in itself. At the very least the wording in this rule should be changed.

Secondly, the main reason people feel wronged is because people either don't know about the rule or don't think about the roster changes they make mid season as something that counts as hijacking. I think players that are added during the season should be marked like unverified players. That way it's easier for everyone, including the admins, to think about this rule and to enforce it.

If these things are changed then the rule be much fairer and work for everyone without making people feel like they've been screwed over.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:35:43 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Forty-Two</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-8/?recent=532563#post=532555</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[So much animosity here D:

Can this whole thread just be converted into a request for a new site feature, where there's an automated check for adding new players to the roster? Ie I just added a bunch of people to my team's roster mid-season, big red flashing lights appear, along with the text 'Oi, if you want to do this, go contact an admin right now!' 

Keeps a rule against evil horrid wrongdoers in place, protects poor innocent team leaders against getting caught in the fire. Hopefully even ends all the rabble rabble in this thread, too!]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:26:57 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by nijoonen</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-8/?recent=532563#post=532551</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from birdy</i>
		<blockquote>i'll simplify this 
1. read the rules before signing your team up for the season
2. follow the rules
3. enjoy your season</blockquote>]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:11:18 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by birdyrocks</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532549</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[i'll simplify this 
1. read the rules before signing your team up for the season
2. follow the rules
3. enjoy your season]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:45:13 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Lolacio</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532538</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from </i>
		<blockquote>Yes that's is true and apparently it was used in the past, but does someone remember being in enforced in highlander, also like I wrote the older version was different than current one. </blockquote>

It got enforced last season.

<i>Quoted from </i>
		<blockquote>So let's have look at rule itself what is very few of the lineup are still active and participating?

The rule is being enforced by judging if the players who started when seasons begun. But it also checks if players actually play, but it's really hard to judge because players added to roster can be as well just subs, and just bad luck and it ends having 5 non regular players and 4 which started the season.
</blockquote>

If you need to add in 5 or more players to your team it just goes to show that your team is badly prepared for the season. If it is due to bad luck and players dropping we ask you to contact us so we can take it into consideration. Asking teams after they broke the criteria seems unreasonable because they could come up with whatever reason they want.

<i>Quoted from </i>
		<blockquote>
Also I want to bring that really what extrem lineup changes mean, because from my pespective dropping one player and getting one instead once a week, or even twice is hardly extreme for highlander. Players dropping left and right, quiting, getting bored.
</blockquote>

If you would add in a new player or 2 every week you would have a whole new team by the end of the season. Because with some fancy math this would mean between 7-14 new players. This would be eligible for the hijacking rules criteria.


<i>Quoted from </i>
		<blockquote> The rule itself force people now to do math and by removing those teams it will cause just panic with some leaders. I really think the rule should be just removed for rest of season</blockquote>

The rule has been here for a long time and has been enforced in the past. No reason to remove it mid-season now because some teams got dropped due to it.

<i>Quoted from </i>
		<blockquote> and rules should be different for highlander and for 6v6 and be straigh forward with numbers or percentage.</blockquote>

We have league specific rules. You said that you "spend a lot of time in rule section", I would expect you to have found the different league specific rules by now. Being number specific would not help seeing these get decided on a case by case scenario. This would include teams having a lot of new players + perma mercs and other stuff like skill level.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:16:42 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by dnscodcs</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532537</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from antso the helper</i>
		<blockquote>So you ignored all my questions which was about general issues + how it could be exploited. As i was merely giving examples to backing it up. Since you didn´t answer any questions, this seems very fishy.</blockquote>

If you want your questions answered use the correct platform. 
We provide individual support through http://etf2l.org/help/support/ , not the forums.

EDIT:
If you decide to ignore my warning and bring it up again I'll have to ban you from the forums.


		<blockquote>
F.5 – Do not go against a forum moderator’s warning or decision, for example by re-posting deleted content, re-creating locked threads, or ignoring a warning issued in the thread.
</blockquote>]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:15:44 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hajdzik</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532536</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Ducky the quote was from this thread, not private conversations with Sonny, I added his removed post on my steam group linked in first post. Cheers]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:15:42 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by antso the helper</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532535</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[So you ignored all my questions which was about general issues + how it could be exploited. As i was merely giving examples to backing it up. Since you didn´t answer any questions, this seems very fishy.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:14:22 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by dnscodcs</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532534</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[
		<blockquote>
F.6 – Do not bring up conflicts (e.g. team arguments, or disagreements with the admins) on the forum. Such threads will be deleted.
</blockquote>

I've removed the posts that were mentioning individual cases (again) rather than deleting the whole thread because I'd like to see what happens when the "petition" reaches a substantial amount of more yes than no votes.

Surely this will make admins ignore all policies and logic to undrop teams that've violated the hijack/roster change rule.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:11:06 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by byte</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532532</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Sonny Black</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Just shows to me how little you know from the get go already. Changing 50%+ of a roster is changing a roster a little? We are looking at replacing teams once they are playing an official with more than half their active roster consisting of new players. A new player being a player who joined after the start of the season.

[...]
Makes sense, because our goal as admins is obviously to kick as many teams out as we can.

[...]
People requesting admins in almost all cases are very happy with the answers or the support they received, what are you even basing your argumentation on? The only few times when players are not happy, is when a decision is made against them. Sometimes they understand after you explain it for them, sometimes they still think they are being treated unfairly or whatever, thats the only case when players might not be satisfied really. And that happens fairly rarely.
I talked to you over an hour yesterday already, something I dont have to do, especially if you dont cannot or dont want to understand the reasons behind the decision that was seemingly made against your team. But I still explained it to you and disapproved your argumentation over and over again. But you just kept playing the same record like a broken record player, so at some point I will end the chat, when I feel that my time and effort are wasted and can be spend in a better way.

[...]
How do you even know that?

[...]
As stated above, we are looking into possible hijack cases once you play an official with 50%+ new players, which is more than 4 or in other words 5, as ash said in a different thread. He never said 4, he said more than 4.

[...]
Because we cannot possibly babysit and monitor every team. The rules are openly available for everyone for a reason. Teams want to change their roster, they come to us in advance. How would we even know if a team plans to change their roster? Once they changed their roster and played the official with 50%+ new players its too late already.

Generally this rule exists and is enforced to ensure that a team playing against a certain team at the start of the season, has the same chances for the sake of fairness compared to another team playing the same team at the end of the season. If a team replaces over half of their active players mid season, it can be unfair to the teams they played earlier in the season (if they are replacing better players with worse) or unfair to the teams they are playing later in the season (if they are replacing worse players with better ones).
As the rule also states, the whole situation can be avoided by contacting an admin and informing him that you will need to replace players or get new players in and by presenting these players. The admins will then evaluate if the request is reasonable, which happens fairly quickly and you can continue from there if everything's fine. Teams not even bothering to contact an admin, let alone read the rules, shouldnt really except any leeway from the admins. Since every team is treated the same, based on the same rules.

[...]
Have fun with that. :)</blockquote>

&#60;3 u Sonny miss you buddy :(

Cheers

Byte]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:46:46 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Atzebumm</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532531</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Hijacking rule was used before in Highlander. Example: UAPlayer last season.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:39:42 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by RTC</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532522</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/61446582.jpg]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 06:00:08 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Sonny Black</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31436/page-7/?recent=532563#post=532518</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Hajdzik</i>
		<blockquote>So it's first time it being used. It was never used before, I know players are not banned. Can you just see I am trying to get to the agreement. I really sorry if you felt offended Sonny but I really aim to do good here. So can we discuss peacefully.</blockquote>
It was used before in 6s for sure and I am also fairly sure it was used in highlander already.

The rule is in place since February 8th 2010 btw.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2015 04:44:05 +0200</pubDate>
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