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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;Improving certain rules and admin work&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by dnscodcs</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-2/?recent=532392#post=532392</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Your requests have been answered by multiple admins in both this thread and IRC.

Thank you for providing feedback to this league, you've succeeded in presenting your opinion.

Since this thread no longer serves a constructive purpose I'll go ahead and lock it.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:54:58 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hajdzik</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-2/?recent=532392#post=532389</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[ITT admins are arbitrary and don't know common sense.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:47:34 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hajdzik</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-2/?recent=532392#post=532268</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from MIndYe</i>
		<blockquote>ITT huge walls of text.

TL;DR Someone threw a hissy fit cause his team didn't get to defend first and they're too bad for mid tier</blockquote>

To ash:
It's feedback thread, I will just make single threads for each idea, because I see this is too much reading for lazy people. Also Muuki's response is out of place. Just 2-3 people answered to actual feedback rest are just ignoring the fact and thinking it's just about my case.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 21:36:27 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by FJ</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-2/?recent=532392#post=532242</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[letting google translate read this out to me and having sad violine playing in the background]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 13:05:06 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Rock</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-2/?recent=532392#post=532239</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from ducky</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

ETF2L isn't a democracy

</blockquote>

and this is supposed to be a good thing?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 12:39:52 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by ashnazg</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-2/?recent=532392#post=532238</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[You're saying we should delete this thread?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 12:34:38 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hajdzik</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-2/?recent=532392#post=532234</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Seriously? That what you get from this? I don't try to fish for deafult win or something it wasn't the case. I am not salty about our game just I see incosequences and can't agree on that the way it's being done right now is proper one. I only mentioned that disagreements should be solved on the fly not on the game, because no admin would give us a restart if we would complain about the game after. Sorry but the admins put up those new guys so 3 of them are not playing comp anymore and 3 next might not play next season. I am just helping those guys to survive.

IMO seeding team in higher tier than they want is bullshit I would really like etf2l to even promote model when teams play from the bottom and go up in divisions. I really admire teams than done that in the past rather than jumping divisions, also admins didn't contact noone from our team asking about how we feel about being seeded in mid. So of course we will use rules to make our situation little better. But we fucked up a little so I had no point really, but if only it would go slighty different we would get no reaction at all anyway.

Please just remove all this banter because obviously thread is about rules and dealing with disagreements during game and I will pursuit it forever.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 07:13:53 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Moogi</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532233</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[lol get good and u dont need to worry about rules]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 07:06:14 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by MInd-</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532232</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[ITT huge walls of text.

TL;DR Someone threw a hissy fit cause his team didn't get to defend first and they're too bad for mid tier]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 05:18:20 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Hajdzik</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532220</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[My goal here is really to promote fair play, there are small rules and talking with Sonny Black yesteday made me thought what would happen if I did yesterday everything like they should my team would be harmed, and I can imagine situations like that to happen in future for other teams.

Rule about not talking about admin decisions really is out of touch, because it can kill every discussion about your work even those which are being made not for flaming and insulting you. You as human beings can do mistakes and I really believe I have point in at least few cases here. I really see the rules you have allow you to make two different decisions in one case by simple sending people away. And I have been mislead on my first contact with admin. If I just made a complain after game it would have propably worse outcome than I did it before and really doubt something would be change it on our favour even when we would be right. We were somewhere right not enouch though. Giving some cases in a public can open a discussion if something should been changed or not. If things are done properly and I believe you can do better but it's just my opinion. I was an admin myself multiple times, still doint it as my job so I really feel like you're just defending each other and really Sonny Black made an impression yesterday that he's forced to do it.

My topic yesterday didn't bring "conflict with admin" it was bringing issue with minor disagrrement during matches and the way they are solved. I really believe it could be done on the fly. And deleting thread with sugestion just because there was me talking admin is really an overkill on it.

2. About readying up, I think it should be just small mention in the rules that if rival is 8 on server and match is late, you can say in official manner best on steam message that, 15 minutes left and you enforce the enemy to ready up the game. And the 9th can join later. Just to make it clear for lower tier teams, because writing: "omg rup or deafult" is taken as a joke to much times.

3. Ye I know it, but people sometimes are very slow in reaction and I played official for one minute with spectator on it, it was long ago but still, couldn't you mention that under the rule that you have wroten there?

4. Ok imagine my situation from yesterday little different?
- We declared to enemy we want defend first, they say okay, but after ready up the sides switch. They refuse to switch it after that and just say keep playing or ignore. We pause the game on setup, declaring we want restart, they don't agree. I contact admin right away, he says we have right to heavy fist fight if they want defend instead. Problem solved.
- Same situation. I make complain after game. But you played whole game what is the matter

For you to understand this situation my team was not supposed to be seeded in mid, our combo has maybe total 1500 hours in game, we were forced to drop 3 players, who started competetive because they were meant to playing this game not on this level. They were pretty new to game, after they got seeded in mid they didn't really know they should adress that matter to admins. I was away and I was going to be sub. But when we couldn't change it anymore we helped them a lot, pick up 2 more mid players and it's somehow rolling, but we're trying to use everything as our advantage, so picking defence said which was our stronger was better idea for starting match, because you propably know how morale works.

I really can't imagine in situation on that even without us having right to restart or switch sides. If we would get bad score that we would anything more than minor warning for rival team, without affecting the game. And I really believe starting as defenders would be better option.

So dealing with minor disagreements would be time saving in case the game should be replayed, but that doesn't happen at all, it doesn't promote playing IMO, it promotes more fishing for deafult wins.

7. I can ask them but they can ignore that, I really have in mind some kind of fair play system, maybe outside etf2l maybe inside etf2l, where leaders could award good enemy leaders for fair play, and mark those leaders who are not known from being fair. I really see how can rule be abused in 5cp maps or sixes. But maybe even mentioning that restarting he game in first couple of seconds is a good thing you don't have to make it a rule.

8. Thanks for at least agreeing on one thing.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2015 22:39:15 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by dnscodcs</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532213</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from CanFo</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
I disagree with this argumentation. You should not unpause if your opponent is not ready (if he does not take the piss) and maybe that should be integrated in the rules somehow 
</blockquote>

This creates the problem of defining when someone is "taking the piss".

Right now the ruling is worded in a way where it says that a 'proper warning' is required before you're allowed to resume the game.
Whether the warning was proper or not time-wise depends on the circumstances of the pause in every specific match, not necessarily a fixed time period that you have to wait.

Now assuming that people adhere to the rules and pause the match "at the first appropriate time (e.g. not in the middle of a push)" after their opponents have requested it then the difference between waiting 5 seconds and 15 seconds should be minimal, if not non existing.

These cases of people not giving proper warnings before an unpause happen so rarely, if at all, that that it seems pointless to adjust a rule to it that works perfectly fine otherwise.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:54:34 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CannonFodd3r</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532212</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from ducky</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

Team A pausing means that Team A is spending their pause resource to gain 5 minutes of extra time. With these 5 minutes they can do whatever they want.
They can end it prematurely whenever they want as long as they give a warning in chat.

If Team B is not ready by the time that Team A unpauses then that's a problem on their side. 
If they need more time to get ready then they will have to use their own pause resource, not the one of their opponents.</blockquote>
I disagree with this argumentation. You should not unpause if your opponent is not ready (if he does not take the piss) and maybe that should be integrated in the rules somehow (although it is A) common courtesy not to unpause when your opponent is not ready and B) common courtesy to not go and make a sandvich when your opponent pauses and could be ready any second [unless you are heavy weapons guy]).]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:38:27 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CannonFodd3r</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532210</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[OK I will just answer some of your points.

1. Match conflicts are not allowed to be discussed in public for good reasons. It has the potential to create unnecessary drama and there are no public votes over the outcome of disputes anyway so why would everyone need to know all details? Back when I was admin, the result of a match complaint was explained in a post on the match page after the investigation was finished - and that is all you need. I don't think that has changed.

2. I agree that the 15 minute delay is arbitrary. But where would you draw the line? 30 minutes? 40 minutes? 2 hours? No limit at all? If neither team is a total jerk, you'll manage to either start on time or delay the match a bit longer by explaining your issue and asking nicely to run a little over the scheduled time. If the other team forces you to start on time, you can usually find that out ahead of time but communicating any issues you face. If everything else fails, you can start the match and pause right away ("pause please, we are missing a player") for another 5 minutes.
... although my last point should probably not be allowed ;)

3. What do you do if a player joins your server who is not supposed to be there. Here's an idea: Kick him.
ETF2L has banned players for joining a server during a match server to troll in the past, by the way.

4. Match disputes should be solved after a match. If the violation was severe, the other team will usually get a default loss. If it was less severe, they might get a warning or a round will be decided in the other team's favour (we did that usually if a team violated the class limit and that class might potentially have made an impact on the outcome of that round, back in my days).

5. Not sure what you mean by that... But I also do not know anything about the skill of the teams you talk about. Here's why the first two swiss rounds are manually balanced:
If the best team and the 2nd best team face in the first round and there was no manual balancing, the 2nd best team could face the worst team in round 2. The balancing of the swiss system only kicks in after a few matches and gets more accurate the more matches are played. To ensure a better match quality thoughout the whole season, some teams are being given invisible points for the first two rounds.

7. You CAN ask the other team for a restart, if a player drops 20 seconds into the match. What is stopping you? There is just no rule enforcing a restart if a player drops until an arbitrary deadline (potential for abuse. My demo failed the rollout? I better pull out my internet cable to time out and force a restart!).

8. I agree that the unpause process could be made clearer (e.g. "Before unpausing, you must ask your opponent if they are ready. Only if they are ready, you may unpause the game.") - although I do believe it is common courtesy to not unpause when your opponent is not ready yet.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:32:49 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by FJ</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532208</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[what a read]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:12:12 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by dnscodcs</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-31426/page-1/?recent=532392#post=532207</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[
		<blockquote>
1. Conflicts or disagreements with admins can be over interpretated like my yesterday topic, thing like unreasonable bans happened in the past, also decisions being made wrong and not straightened. Consrutive post and not abusive even about disagreement, mine was more about rules not disagreements so it shouldn’t aply or it was really not good decision.
</blockquote>

The public doesn't have a single say when it comes to a match conflict verdict. 
As such there is no benefit in making these cases public in the first place. 
ETF2L isn't a democracy, you can disagree with admins as a way of expressing your personal opinion but it won't change the outcome of our decision.

The only thing such a thread will do is give people a platform to flame, that's not in our interest.


		<blockquote>
2. With playing over Internet many issues are possible, it’s not always teams fault that match is late and on other esports matches are delayed by even more than 15 minutes. [...] But also if before the game some game related issue, servers lagging etc. or team dispute should be able to delay game by couple of minutes.
</blockquote>

Having issues with your internet connection is a problem on your side, not ours. 
We are neither required nor willing to cater to this kind of problem, if your internet is "bad" then you shouldn't be playing an internet based game competitively.

About the servers lagging: We have a rule for that,too:


		<blockquote>
5.1 Be reasonable regarding servers

Both teams can agree on the server which both maps are played on, or agree to play one map on each clan’s server. If you can’t agree to play either way then the game must be played on an ETF2L league server (please contact an admin to arrange this).

Make sure the server is adequate <strong>before you start</strong> – complaints cannot be made after the match.
</blockquote>

Before you start as in make sure that the server is fine BEFORE the scheduled match time.
If you miss the opportunity to do that before the match then once again it's a problem on your side, not ours. 
You're not meant to be experimenting with servers during the match, match time is for playing and playing only.


		<blockquote>
3. I mean what should both teams do if someone who wasn’t supposed to be on server join to the server – that actually happened to me, some random guy just connected to server. What teams should do what if that person is somehow connected to enemy team. How teams should behave if person is just random.
</blockquote>

The answer is simple: The team who owns/reserved the server should kick/ban the player who's not meant to be there. If they don't then they will face a punishment.

I don't know why this requires a modification of our rule, all you need is common sense.


		<blockquote>
4. Pauses during disagreements with rival team? Why it shoudn’t be done? I cam to conclusion yesterday that really admins can deny replying the game even if I had a point yesterday if I made an complain after the game. Kkaltuu do you remember match on gullywash with Kill Switch, server went down, don’t remember who they played agains, and there was dispute during the game either to give up round to team or not and it was done during the match. That was piece of good admin work in my oponion and every dispute should be resolved similar way. Also do you really think it’s worse option to open a dispute during pause on the beginning of the game, and restarting the round when nothing really happend, that restarting the game after one round or whole game? You just make it easy to execute for you and not fair for players.
</blockquote>

The case you mentioned was an exception. We don't have enough league admins to have them join every single official every time there's a match complaint, not to mention that not every admin is online and available all day every day.

Plus some cases aren't always clear and require a review by multiple admins over a period of time =&#62; impossible to resolve them immediately.

Of course we make it easy to execute for us, after all we're the ones who have to deal with a high number of match complaints every season.
Verdicts don't have to be fair (especially since most peoples definition of "fair" is incredibly subjective) they simply have to adhere to the rules.

If you don't agree with the match-rules then don't compete in this league.


		<blockquote>
5. “To compensate, teams in the top 50% are given some invisible points from which the fixtures are generated from for the first 2 weeks.”

Like why we had to play two teams from top 50% when we were an open team in mid obviously, team doing bad in week should play similar team in week 2. Would really be more fair. I asked about it before and it really doesn’t make sense.
</blockquote>

You clearly don't understand the swiss system. 
The first 2 week matches aren't necessarily balanced, arranging that is an impossible task.
To make it fairer we pre-seed top teams with invisible points at the start of the season.
These invisible points are meant to lose any relevance from Week 3 onwards since teams will have balanced fixtures by then

I recommend you read this wikipedia article to learn more about the system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament


		<blockquote>
6.

    What makes you think we don’t have policies and guidelines?

Because every time I come to IRC to discuss something admins need to talk to other admins even in simple cases.
</blockquote>

You have contacted us a total of 3 times, 2 times of which you presented the same case and 1 time to argue/discuss the verdict for that case with sonny.

Based off of that, how are you able to make general assumptions again? 
You clearly don't know what you're talking about.


		<blockquote>
7. Another idea come to my mind, you know how sometimes after readying up someone of your team loses connection you feel the pain? What about making an exception and teams could ask for one restart during the game, like a deafult won no more than 20 seconds in the game or in setup time.
</blockquote>

Losing connection =&#62; Your personal problem. Same answer as for 2.


		<blockquote>
8. My bad with binds but with unpausing, it just said that enemy team should warn about unpause, but it’s really not said how that warn should look, in my opinion this should have more official aproach. Because now teams can just say “unpause in 5″ and unpause when the other team isn’t even ready, if the 5 minutes go by it should be stated 5 minutes gone, and give like 15 seconds to unpause rather than doing it in blink of an eye.
</blockquote>

Team A pausing means that Team A is spending their pause resource to gain 5 minutes of extra time. With these 5 minutes they can do whatever they want.
They can end it prematurely whenever they want as long as they give a warning in chat.

If Team B is not ready by the time that Team A unpauses then that's a problem on their side. 
If they need more time to get ready then they will have to use their own pause resource, not the one of their opponents.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:09:02 +0200</pubDate>
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