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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;[ETF2L] Questions about Swiss Tournament System&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by dnscodcs</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=538585</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Permzilla</i>
		<blockquote> Sonneborn Burger Score.</blockquote>

Second best only to the McDonalds Burger Score <img src="https://camo.githubusercontent.com/1d2eb07af6841b6e95e89af83d828a34b4c921ec/68747470733a2f2f7261772e6769746875622e636f6d2f7363686d6963682f6b617070612f6d61737465722f6173736574732f6b617070612e706e67">]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2015 13:57:13 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Permzilla</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=538579</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from TimTum</i>
		<blockquote>Maybe somebody else already asked this question before, but I couldn't find it anywhere. 
Because in Open, you still have teams with the same amount of maps won and lost.

The team I'm in for example is in fourth place, but we have the same amount of points as three other teams. What makes us 4th and not 7th?</blockquote>

It's random on the tables currently as it's always been (teams with tied points are sorted by map wins IIRC). At the end of the season ties are broken using either Head-2-Head (for 2 teams) or Sonneborn Berger Score.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2015 03:15:06 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by TimTum</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=538577</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Maybe somebody else already asked this question before, but I couldn't find it anywhere. 
Because in Open, you still have teams with the same amount of maps won and lost.

The team I'm in for example is in fourth place, but we have the same amount of points as three other teams. What makes us 4th and not 7th?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2015 02:10:58 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Gentleman Jon</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=522309</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Gentleman Jon</i>
		<blockquote>I suggest not giving the new tiers the same names as ESEA, it's bad for brand differentiation.</blockquote>
I'll clarify this, at the moment ETF2L has Divs. If someone talks about Divs in a TF2 context you know they're talking about ETF2L. This is the same for UGC in that if someone talks about Iron of whatever in a TF2 context you know they mean UGC (although Steel obviously has the map), and for ESEA if someone talks about Open or IM or whatever, you know they're talking about ESEA.

If ETF2L adopts the same names as ESEA then it confuses things by meaning two groups of people are using the same nomenclature to talk about two different things, which means the brands are not clearly differentiated. But the clincher is that ESEA has been around for 7 years so they have a massive advantage in market position (sorry for talking in commercial terms but remember ESEA is a business, even if they essentially speculate on TF2 at a loss for now), essentially in this small regard ETF2L loses it's identity behind ESEA and every time it talks about it's new tiers it essentially advertises ESEA instead. 

This might have utility if ETF2L was trying deliberately to poach ESEA's customers because it lowers the barriers to entry, but ETF2L isn't doing that. In fact if ESEA opened an EU league again the change might make it easier for them to take ETF2L's players.

Yes this is a relatively minor detail but it's from attention to detail that a strong identity is built. I wouldn't urge ETF2L admins to be different just for the sake of it, but as there is already a preexisting identity in this area it seems pointless to just throw it away for no apparent reason. The exception might be Open as this is so widely used among organised games and sports it's relatively generic.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2014 17:02:52 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by MAR5</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=521942</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Since you are changing things on the site, I'd like to make a suggestion:

We get a notification for new schedule proposals on the main page, can we get the same thing for demo requests?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:48:03 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Admirable</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=521927</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Fully Charged! Europe - Episode 20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlvEHusfpKc]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2014 18:19:15 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by fraac</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=521918</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[And what about the imaginary results? Will you use Jon's ratings, or just decide for yourselves?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:12:50 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by ashnazg</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-9/?recent=538585#post=521914</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Seedings still have to be done manually, but simply deciding if a team is in half A or half B of a tier is easier than putting them into several subdivisions.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:00:25 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by fraac</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-8/?recent=538585#post=521913</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I just wondered whether the seeding would be done automatically, or by Sonny Black rating teams manually, which doesn't seem like much less work than now.

So is reaching the playoffs the same as getting promoted?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:51:30 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Permzilla</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-8/?recent=538585#post=521906</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from fraac</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

[...]

How will these be done?</blockquote>

Not sure what you want me to say, it'll be done back-end. Not sure <strong> exactly </strong> how it will be implemented if thats what you mean.

<i>Quoted from JackyLegs</i>
		<blockquote>What would this mean for map schedules? how many maps per week? 1 like ESEA (better option) playing 2 teams? 2 playing 1 team?

And does this mean one more map to the list?</blockquote>

Same as before, 1 match a week and 2 maps. No changes there. Why would it <strong> mean </strong> 1 more map to the season? Don't understand how you're getting that, but we're not forced to add another map.

<i>Quoted from Dingo</i>
		<blockquote>Since it seems that the number of rounds won/lost is having a greater importance, as they will be counted when two team are tied by points, will you just keep golden caps as they are? Maybe I see things from the wrong perspective, but with the new system I would eliminate golden caps entirely.
</blockquote>

We'll get some feedback on golden caps before Season 20 and adjust accordingly, it's possible to use any scenario (same as before, No gc+draws, golden cap but 3-0)

<i>Quoted from Ecophagy</i>
		<blockquote>Will the standings/points be decided as they are in UGC (where it's strictly the number of wins/losses, then done by map points etc), or will points be allocated as under current ETF2L rules of 6 for a win, 4 for a GC win etc?

Essentially, if you win week 1 off a GC, are you more likely to play someone else who won a GC, or are only strict wins looked at as in UGC?</blockquote>

It's strictly by point totals, wins/losses won't come into it. Points will be the same unless the GC rule changes (see above). Yes, teams are matched by points so if you get 5 points in Week 1 you'll be playing somebody else with 5 points (assuming they exist).

<i>Quoted from Popcorp</i>
		<blockquote>I think having like 184 teams in 1 Tier (5&#38;6) would be quite an overkill, there should be div like Sub-Tiers, Sub-Tier for Tier 4 and maybe 3, with 30 teams or so in each of them...Having 184 in 1 Tier would be an Overkill</blockquote>

This would sort of...negate the point of doing this change somewhat. 184 is a lot but why is it overkill?

<i>Quoted from Deox</i>
		<blockquote>So winning div 2, 4 and 6 last season was pointless now? Not sure I like the idea of playing in the same 'Tier' for 4 seasons in a row. However i'm open to the change so not a huge deal just a bit skeptical.</blockquote>

It's not completely pointless, it means you're pretty much guaranteed to get seeded into the top 50% pre-season. Clearly it's not as big of a deal as normal, but we have to make this change between seasons at some point. Sorry to everyone who this affects!

<i>Quoted from Bona</i>
		<blockquote>All I think that the people who want to have a vote are tired of the prem circlejerk deciding everything while they put in just as much time and effort.

What happens now is people are arguing which is better, letting the people who "apperently" have a far greater and more intelligent understanding of how the game should be played, or let everyone vote.

Both are bad. Just find a good compromise which will benefit not just the premiership players.</blockquote>

Unrelated, but look at the s20 pre-season whitelist which is open to everyone, this is allowing us to get a feel of how everyone takes to the weapons - not just asking Prem.

<i>Quoted from Oxy</i>
		<blockquote>Haven't read the whole thread so this might have been said, but I suggest seperating div 5 and 6. They both have plenty to fill one each anyway.</blockquote>

Really don't see the point, they're almost identical in skill.

<i>Quoted from Admirable</i>
		<blockquote>Also using round difference as a deciding factor for tiebreakers seems arbitrary.

If I am behind in a match with limited time I am likely going to take big risks to go for the win rather than keep playing the same way and hope for a different outcome.

Yet a team who turtles for the low scoring loss could be automatically rated above me in tiebreaker?

I don't have a better solution and it's probably a non-issue in terms of weekly ranking, but if I missed out on the playoffs because of this I would be mad 8)</blockquote>

After Fully Charged and some internal discussion, it looks like we'll be using H2H as an initial tiebreaker with the Neustadtl Sonneborn-Berger score as a secondary. 

A player's Neustadtl Sonneborn-Berger score is calculated by adding the sum of the conventional scores of the players he/she has defeated to half the sum of the conventional scores of those he/she has drawn against.

How we do Golden Caps will affect that drastically, but the theory will remain.

<i>Quoted from damneasy</i>
		<blockquote>How many teams willl be in the playoffs?</blockquote>

Roughly the same as currently (count up the promotions/relegations) with the exception that a lot fewer teams will be promoted from Div6/5, about 18-20 perhaps.

<i>Quoted from NeuTronas</i>
		<blockquote>When does S20 open sign ups?</blockquote>

During the first week of January.

<i>Quoted from kid_alt</i>
		<blockquote>when will recruitment be changed?</blockquote>

Not sure, it's not a priority right now as everyone is used to the Division System and can swap between them easily. I'm pretty sure it's easy to do and won't take long when we do it eventually.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:53:22 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by fraac</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-8/?recent=538585#post=521879</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[A lot of these questions were unanswered. Want to have a go at them over Christmas, Permzilla? Cheers.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:33:29 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CHERRY COKE</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-8/?recent=538585#post=521761</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[The mysterious coder is the one and only emb afaik
Then again even I am not sure :O

EDIT: It's probably just another evil German plot this league has seen tens of.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2014 01:49:50 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Rock</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-8/?recent=538585#post=521756</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Alfie</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
I remember the excuse for this never happening earlier was because there was no one in the community to do the work. So I assume it's not cherry.</blockquote>

I wonder how many know this mysterious coder]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2014 01:06:54 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Alfie</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-8/?recent=538585#post=521753</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from rockie</i>
		<blockquote>cherry are you gonna re code the website to fit the new system or?</blockquote>
I remember the excuse for this never happening earlier was because there was no one in the community to do the work. So I assume it's not cherry.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2014 01:00:05 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Rock</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30781/page-8/?recent=538585#post=521751</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[cherry are you gonna re code the website to fit the new system or?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2014 00:44:02 +0100</pubDate>
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