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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;[Highlander Season 7] Provisional Feedback&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by Tom Spillfat</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=526368</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[When do i get my participation medal for Tom vs Highlander?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:11:31 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Makaka</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=525390</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I've read this topic backwards up until page 16. Best laugh I had in days, thank you, guys :D]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2015 06:39:12 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by b33p_</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=525389</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[My team probably suffered more from the rule penalties than any other team in hl this season but I understand them and happen to agree with the current rules. It's simple to use your etf2l name. It's simple to save demos. 

I fucked up twice as far as demo recordings go. First, got a new server and didn't set it to save STVs just to have STV enabled. My mistake, stupid mistake, didn't do it to deny people STV but it happened once and won't happen again. Second time I accidentally deleted demos. The other warnings, sorex got a new PC and didn't install prec. Genuine mistake again, nothing more behind it but we understand the rules. MUSA had his name as 'MUSA' instead of his old etf2l name 'MUSA_tr'. Oh well, again as the leader I take this as my fault for not being strict with our players. 

As far as I can tell every warning can be avoided by strict leadership and attention to detail. I don't think the rules affecting warnings should be changed, they're fine.

Something something seedings.

edit: typo]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2015 05:26:55 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Permzilla</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=524869</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from EmilioEstevez</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

The rule has gotten harsher as the seasons have gone on even though there have been no instances of abuse of it. From here it feels more like warnings are being given out for the sake of it, rather than any actual harm done.

The admins repeatedly tell us how they have final discretion on any decision, maybe they could use it sometimes to take the edge off when no harm has been done? ;)</blockquote>

The rule has gotten harsher as it was simply too vague before, like you were saying is j@m@l ok for Jamal? It made sense to simply make it super strict since its much easier for us, the casters and you only have to play officials with this name so it's not difficult for you.

Rule breaks for the nickname rule used to be very weak for that reason, perhaps we gave a minor for j@m@l, but not MUSA instead of MUSA_tr. It was inconsistent, and it was reasonable highlander players were getting frustrated at the inconsistency.

We have final discretion, but as I've explained it's much easier to simply not draw a line, than draw a line that keeps on moving. As soon as you bring discretion back into you, you bring in the jamal/musa issues I mentioned above.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 23:18:13 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by EmilioEstevez</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=524866</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Permzilla</i>
		<blockquote>[...]</blockquote>

The rule has gotten harsher as the seasons have gone on even though there have been no instances of abuse of it. From here it feels more like warnings are being given out for the sake of it, rather than any actual harm done.

Maybe the admins could use their discretion sometimes to take the edge off when no harm has been done?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 23:12:51 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Permzilla</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=524865</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from EmilioEstevez</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

I get your point but I was always under the impression that the rule was there to stop people being abusive or changing their names to purposefully ruin a cast which I can't actually think of an instance where that has happened in any game I've played. All the nickname warnings in prem this season have been for stuff like MUSA instead of musa_tr and it was the same last season.</blockquote>

It doesn't happen <strong> because </strong> the rule is in place. Before any sort of nickname rule was in place, people would play with weird name and no one would know who is who. It's not always a weird name to necessarily ruin a cast, but there are plenty of people out there who would as a 'joke' even now.

All these petty nickname rule breaks are completely the players fault. It is not challenging to use the same name exactly as your ETF2L name, as the 95% of players correctly managing it show.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 23:02:58 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by EmilioEstevez</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=524864</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Permzilla</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

You have to draw a line somewhere, and if you want to create a list of all acceptable violations (trust me, people are creative) then you'll be doing it for a while. And I don't think anyone would be able to make head or tails of it afterwards. It's much easier to be super strict, although even easier to <strong> actually follow the rule </strong>.</blockquote>

I get your point but I was always under the impression that the rule was there to stop people being abusive or changing their names to purposefully ruin a cast which I can't actually think of an instance where that has happened in any game I've played. All the nickname warnings in prem this season have been for stuff like MUSA instead of musa_tr and it was the same last season.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 22:52:23 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Permzilla</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=524862</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from EmilioEstevez</i>
		<blockquote>I'm not a big fan of the way the names rule is enforced. Warnings for j@m@l instead of jamal, fanny instead of fanny_filth (even though he used the full name in the match just not the status screen) and inso instead of inso2stronk (after kkaltuu OK'd him just using inso) sucked. It didn't affect the standings at all so it's not the hugest deal, but it just feels kind of petty.</blockquote>

You have to draw a line somewhere, and if you want to create a list of all acceptable violations (trust me, people are creative) then you'll be doing it for a while. And I don't think anyone would be able to make head or tails of it afterwards. It's much easier to be super strict, although even easier to <strong> actually follow the rule </strong>.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 22:40:09 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by EmilioEstevez</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-21/?recent=526368#post=524860</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I'm not a big fan of the way the names rule is enforced. Warnings for j@m@l instead of jamal, fanny instead of fanny_filth (even though he used the full name in the match just not the status screen) and inso instead of inso2stronk (after kkaltuu OK'd him just using inso) sucked. It didn't affect the standings at all so it's not the hugest deal, but it just feels kind of petty.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 22:36:29 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Bulow</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-20/?recent=526368#post=524848</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Three minor warnings seems like the right number to me.  I don't think my team picked up more than that over the course of 5 seasons, if not fewer.  

You also need to remember that the rule applies to all divisions.  Most teams have fewer hoops to jump through, i.e. no nickname rule, no mandatory upload of STVs etc.  If you bumped that up to five, that would leave an awful lot of room for 'missing' demos.  Teams in the Premier division can expect to be held to a higher degree of scrutiny, and honestly, it's not that difficult.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:35:44 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Scissors-HL</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-20/?recent=526368#post=524847</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[or how about the entire team just takes responsibility as should be expected in the premiership division???]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:30:09 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Notorious H.O.T.</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-20/?recent=526368#post=524844</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[5 minor warnings before a major one? why not 18? 3 is fine, its not that hard to make sure everybody follow some basic rules ( especially in high div where ppl know those rules for a long time)]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:17:07 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by JoeTea</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-20/?recent=526368#post=524843</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Could it not just be changed to 3 minor warnings on separate occasions equates to 1 major warning. So if two or more people accidentally slip up in one game it doesn't put you on final warning or straight up give you a major. Just an idea, I'm personally fine with the system at the moment but I see your point asa.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:16:10 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by iToaster</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-20/?recent=526368#post=524842</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from asadawarf</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

But all a leader can do to 'take action' is to remind them the next time, and if the offender does it again you cant blame the leader or the team-mates, the offender is just an idiot. 


To reiterate and clarify my post from earlier:

The admins don’t enjoy awarding point penalties - they're only doing it to deter people from rule-breaking, but the people they're catching out with these rules aren't assholes or criminals, they're just forgetful. 5 warnings before a ban would decrease the frequency of these strikes against ethical players, whilst still punishing serial rule-breakers.

The leaders in prem aren’t negligent towards ensuring their team follows the rules, but the teams are still being penalised. In fact the whole team is being penalised because of one person's slip-up, which seems cruel to me. It’s like preventing an entire class of students from going out to break when the bell goes because Sorex forgot his homework again. 

Submitting STV demos is an individual's problem. I fail to understand why there's a blanket penalty given to the whole team when the perpetrator is fully responsible and acted alone. Isn’t the 2-week-or-so ban for repeat offenders enough? Why is there two punishments?

In all honesty I'm against the point penalty entirely (for multiple minor warnings), I see 5 warnings before the pen as a happy medium. Am I being totally naïve in thinking that people just slip up, or is cheating and risking the stv demo warning more common than I think?</blockquote>

Solid points, but it's a discussion that can be seen from multiple angles.
There may be teams that support their cheaters, it happens. There's also teams that don't care about demo's, usernames or sportsmanship.

There's also teams that are really organised except for maybe one guy, and I think it's all fair that the leader takes the responsibility for that one guy. If he fucks up multiple times consequences should be faced - If your team gets a major warning after 3 times, that guy probably belongs somewhere else and not in your team. 

I get your points about sometimes mistakes happening, and now that I think about it, maybe the warning system should be applied to players rather than teams, just like it is the case with demo's.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:09:23 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by asadawarf</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-30468/page-20/?recent=526368#post=524840</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Nik</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
I get your point about warnings and leaders doing everything they can do prevent them, at least most of 'em try, but EVERYONE knows that demo's most be recorded, matches have to be scheduled, and if you're in prem you have to use your actual nickname. (Not sure if they're still really nazi about that.) If a leader fails to check that multiple times, or if your teammate forgets one of these or intentionally fucks up a leader has to take action, whatever that may be. Third times a charm.
</blockquote>

But all a leader can do to 'take action' is to remind them the next time, and if the offender does it again you cant blame the leader or the team-mates, the offender is just an idiot. 


To reiterate and clarify my post from earlier:

The admins don’t enjoy awarding point penalties - they're only doing it to deter people from rule-breaking, but the people they're catching out with these rules aren't assholes or criminals, they're just forgetful. 5 warnings before a ban would decrease the frequency of these strikes against ethical players, whilst still punishing serial rule-breakers.

The leaders in prem aren’t negligent towards ensuring their team follows the rules, but the teams are still being penalised. In fact the whole team is being penalised because of one person's slip-up, which seems cruel to me. It’s like preventing an entire class of students from going out to break when the bell goes because Sorex forgot his homework again. 

Submitting STV demos is an individual's problem. I fail to understand why there's a blanket penalty given to the whole team when the perpetrator is fully responsible and acted alone. Isn’t the 2-week-or-so ban for repeat offenders enough? Why is there two punishments?

In all honesty I'm against the point penalty entirely (for multiple minor warnings), I see 5 warnings before the pen as a happy medium. Am I being totally naïve in thinking that people just slip up, or is cheating and risking the stv demo warning more common than I think?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2015 18:53:56 +0100</pubDate>
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