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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;[S3] Provisional map pool feedback&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by kunnyfunt</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-7/?recent=417042#post=417042</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from ondkaja</i>
		<blockquote>[...]If you defend B, A becomes easy to cap. And if you defend A, B becomes easy to cap. That's kinda the entire point of Gpit, and while most teams usually defend B, a good defence on A can be just as effective.</blockquote>

i agree/ disagree with you.

just played Gpit in UGC and this exact situation cropped up. we had stuck a sniper and scout on A witch delayed their cap time to around a minute. after that we sucessfully held B. after which we simply stacked A to win. we met some resistance but really most of their team should have been there to ensure they at least got a chance to defend B.

its true that the option to defend A is difficult as the map dosen't have a surefire "safe zone" like B's shadow. but its not somthing to be completely discarded with. espically if you're confident on your B defence. not to mention that A is sometimes seen as an ambush spot to pick a few targets off before they can attack b, AND a spy can give info as to what classes are at A and where they're attacking from.

so yea. i agree that A is certainly worth defending. is it as easy to defend as B? I don't think so. but its definitely a + part of Gpit because it gives teams a tactical dilemma as to what classes defend where, and for how long. something witch is kind of always the same for other maps.

kf]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:28:10 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Ond kaja</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-7/?recent=417042#post=417008</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Override.dll</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Gpit has one, too: point A is too easy to cap, making it almost 2-point CP map rather than 3-point. Nobody seem to complain about "generic HL maps", Badwater and Upward.
</blockquote>If you defend B, A becomes easy to cap. And if you defend A, B becomes easy to cap. That's kinda the entire point of gpit, and while most teams usually defend B, a good defense on A can be just as effective.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 14:10:09 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Setlet</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-7/?recent=417042#post=416974</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Override.dll</i>
		<blockquote>Gpit has one, too: point A is too easy to cap</blockquote>

Then defend A.

But yeah the point of GPIT is that you can't defend both points at the same time.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 06:57:08 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Override.dll</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416972</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from ondkaja</i>
		<blockquote>[...]The reason why they are not in the map pool is because they have severe pacing and balance issues, and overall boring stalematey gameplay, not because certain classes are disadvantaged on them. Besides, candidate maps are being played in mixes, experimental cups, UGC, doublemixes and PCWs, because highlander is still very experimental.</blockquote>
Gpit has one, too: point A is too easy to cap, making it almost 2-point CP map rather than 3-point. Nobody seem to complain about "generic HL maps", Badwater and Upward.

<i>Quoted from envy</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Also, lol at upgrading tele up to third level in HL. Maybe I don't understand something, but it seems useless as fuck.</blockquote>
You surely don't. Level 1 tele saves like 10-40 seconds of movement, depending on class and map, minus cooldown time. Lower the cooldown time, and new respawn wave will affect the battlefield much faster. Imagine Heavy that appears when demo's uber is one second from the end and shreds him along with Medic and Scout, allowing Engi to rebuild instead of dying or assembling another nest one point backwards.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 03:15:15 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by rumia</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416959</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Override.dll</i>
		<blockquote>makes certain things go wrong
</blockquote>
"Wrong" it's like what? Losing your buildings is wrong? This. Is. Normal. Get over it. Medics drop or pop forced ubers every day and nobody says that "map specific advantages and disadvantages" is to blame. If you want to build your shit in setup time and never lose anything during a round, <em>this</em> is wrong.
Also, lol at upgrading tele up to third level in HL. Maybe I don't understand something, but it seems useless as fuck.
P.S. I don't even say anything about the Wrangler.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 00:04:09 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Ond kaja</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416954</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Override.dll</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Then we'd play Junction, Nightfall, Pipeline and Dustbowl too.</blockquote>The reason why they are not in the map pool is because they have severe pacing and balance issues, and overall boring stalematey gameplay, not because certain classes are disadvantaged on them. Besides, candidate maps are being played in mixes, experimental cups, UGC, doublemixes and PCWs, because highlander is still very experimental.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 23:27:46 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Override.dll</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416912</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from ondkaja</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

Besides, class x being disadvantaged on a map is not a reason to eliminate it from the map pool.</blockquote>
Then we'd play Junction, Nightfall, Pipeline and Dustbowl too.

<i>Quoted from Spike Himself</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

This, basically. If you don't want to play on a map just because it's more difficult for the class you play, maybe you should ask yourself whether or not you're actually ready to play competitively..</blockquote>
More difficult? Like Scout on Dustbowl? Sometimes it almost does not matter how skilled the player is, map specific advantages and disadvantages (like 5gorge's second spawn room that has no blindspots and vulnerabilities, or Foundry's second points that are easy to defend) makes certain things go wrong. 

<i>Quoted from Koeitje</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

Learn to DM? You got a shotgun that does 50-90 damage depending on range, a pistol with unlimited ammo that does 12-22, and a mini-sentry that can help dps and draw attention. In that sense GP differs a lot from something like PL maps, where you can have time to rebuild a full sentry nest. </blockquote>
Revengi in def leads to quick loss too often. Imagine minisentry attempting to guard GenericHLPLmap's first route. Similar thing on Gpit, not counting blindspots for spam. And how to DM with 125 HP and a shotgun?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 18:14:21 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Koeitje</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416867</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Override.dll</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

like every sentry spot on every map ever

Then you don’t know what it is to main Engi. Upward’s route 1 offers 1 out of 3 spots that cannot be heavily spammed as it’s far away, spending like half uber just to approach it – and fail, if RED has their own uber. Badwater’s common spot on 1st route can be only spammed from below, but this spot is not sentry’s blindspot, unless it’s misplaced, so no big deal.


[...]
Every class is easy to play on stock maps against noobs, but there is simply no good spots for Engi, nor there are any possible playing techniques other than turtling. What else could be done by Engi on atkdef map in RED?

Out of all scrims that were not registered there and tf2lobby.com pick-ups, those maps were worst to play at.</blockquote>

Learn to DM? You got a shotgun that does 50-90 damage depending on range, a pistol with unlimited ammo that does 12-22, and a mini-sentry that can help dps and draw attention. In that sense GP differs a lot from something like PL maps, where you can have time to rebuild a full sentry nest.

Last time I played upwards with my team as engi I was only lagging behind our demo and soldier in terms of frags on both offense and defense. Upwards is the best map to play gunslinger engi on. Maybe it was just scrubs we played :D. GP is the same. Lots of vgood spots that are mainly useful as a gunslinger engi.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:53:33 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Spike Himself</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416866</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from ondkaja</i>
		<blockquote>Besides, class x being disadvantaged on a map is not a reason to eliminate it from the map pool.</blockquote>

This, basically. If you don't want to play on a map just because it's more difficult for the class you play, maybe you should ask yourself whether or not you're actually ready to play competitively..]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:48:13 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Ond kaja</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416862</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Override.dll</i>
		<blockquote>[...]
Then you don't know what it is to main Engi. Upward's route 1 offers 1 out of 3 spots that cannot be heavily spammed as it's far away, spending like half uber just to approach it - and fail, if RED has their own uber. Badwater's common spot on 1st route can be only spammed from below, but this spot is not sentry's blindspot, unless it's misplaced, so no big deal.

[...]
Every class is easy to play on stock maps against noobs, but there is simply no good spots for Engi, nor there are any possible playing techniques other than turtling. What else could be done by Engi on atkdef map in RED?

Out of all scrims that were not registered there and tf2lobby.com pick-ups, those maps were worst to play at.</blockquote>

Yes, sentries are more easily spammed on gpit than upward or badwater, so what? Is there a problem with faster rounds, requiring more team work to defend the sentry and/or requiring a higher skill level on engineer? It's still equal since the opposing team's engineer have to defend his sentry as well. Besides, class x being disadvantaged on a map is not a reason to eliminate it from the map pool.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:35:59 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Dukermons</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416860</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[When we played 6v6 on gravelpit we had an engy who loved to place his gun in cunning ninja spots. You don't have to put anything anywhere as engy, go nutz and leave a ninja level 3 somewhere that will get a kill, then move it somewhere else.

You don't have to build a nest and sit in it, go explore and take a gun with you.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:26:51 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Override.dll</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416859</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from ondkaja</i>
		<blockquote>[...]

like every sentry spot on every map ever</blockquote>
Then you don't know what it is to main Engi. Upward's route 1 offers 1 out of 3 spots that cannot be heavily spammed as it's far away, spending like half uber just to approach it - and fail, if RED has their own uber. Badwater's common spot on 1st route can be only spammed from below, but this spot is not sentry's blindspot, unless it's misplaced, so no big deal.

<i>Quoted from Koeitje</i>
		<blockquote>I love playing engi on gp. Try something else than the standard turtle strats.</blockquote>
Every class is easy to play on stock maps against noobs, but there is simply no good spots for Engi, nor there are any possible playing techniques other than turtling. What else could be done by Engi on atkdef map in RED?

Out of all scrims that were not registered there and tf2lobby.com pick-ups, those maps were worst to play at.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:20:26 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Koeitje</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416798</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I love playing engi on gp. Try something else than the standard turtle strats.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 01:46:23 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Ond kaja</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416794</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Override.dll</i>
		<blockquote>being effectively spammed out of any spot</blockquote>

like every sentry spot on every map ever]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 01:10:27 +0100</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Override.dll</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/feedback/topic-23079/page-6/?recent=417042#post=416792</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Please, no 6v6 maps in HL. Gpit and Granary are pain for Engis:
Gpit: one may either build on B's roof or behind it, being effectively spammed out of any spot, guarding C is not so funny too because of blindspots where all the spam comes from.
Granary: one decides to play Revengi, but his team loses central point and 2nd, so one has to guard the last point, which means tedious turtling. Otherwise, playing defensively, Engi has to haul whenever the spawn room is moved, and that's both risky and as tedious. Those maps are not for engineering at all. Full time snipers may argue, but they don't have to build a new level 3 tele after every cap.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 01:00:16 +0100</pubDate>
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