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	<title>ETF2L &#8211; Latest activity in &#8220;ESA P2P Ultiduo #1&#8221;</title>
	<link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/</link>
	<description><![CDATA[The latest posts to this topic.]]></description>
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    	    <title>Reply by Kaneco</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462372</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from CanFo</i>
		<blockquote>Thanks for the feedback everyone and thanks to the 5 teams that played in the end! There is unfortunately nothing that can be done about the currency. I tried to pick a better time and lowered the entry fee for the next edition.

The next 2v2 P2P cup is next week on Wednesday at 20.00 CEST in the BBall format. Entry fee is £3 per team (resulting in a maximum prize pool of £48), 16 slots, top 8 payout. Proper announcement will follow when the signups open (this Wednesday).

Don't forget that you can host community tournaments in the 6v6, Ultiduo or BBall format. It is piss easy, rules etc. are already set up. It is literally just a few clicks away: https://esagamer.com/tournaments/community/create</blockquote>

Why only 16 slots?

With decent promotion it could easily fill 32 slots imo]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2013 01:35:29 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CannonFodd3r</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462362</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Thanks for the feedback everyone and thanks to the 5 teams that played in the end! There is unfortunately nothing that can be done about the currency. I tried to pick a better time and lowered the entry fee for the next edition.

The next 2v2 P2P cup is next week on Wednesday at 20.00 CEST in the BBall format. Entry fee is £3 per team (resulting in a maximum prize pool of £48), 16 slots, top 8 payout. Proper announcement will follow when the signups open (this Wednesday).

Don't forget that you can host community tournaments in the 6v6, Ultiduo or BBall format. It is piss easy, rules etc. are already set up. It is literally just a few clicks away: https://esagamer.com/tournaments/community/create]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2013 01:05:30 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Asbak</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462354</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I dont think 2 pounds per person is too much. I think one of the bigger problems could be that its on monday night which is ugc night, so that already stops a lot of people from entering. Even though I got raped in both matches it was still fun. I'd sign up again.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 23:47:37 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CannonFodd3r</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462347</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from MightyMe</i>
		<blockquote>bo1 is pretty stupid tbh</blockquote>
It is only best of 1 maps, the map itself is won after 2 caps per team (best of 3), which can take up to 35 minutes. Why is that stupid? It allows a faster progress during the earlier rounds and potentially more rounds/teams per night (which was not necessary in this case, granted).

For the semis and finals it is best of 3 maps.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 23:04:03 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by MightyMe</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462343</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[- mistake already discussed it with canfo  -]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:38:21 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Sideshow</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462342</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I was under the impression that it was £4 per person as well, and the timing isn't the best. People in top teams have playoff games and LAN that they're still practicing for, and there are still teams getting keen for next season already. But there isn't a perfect time so I can see why you'd choose this one.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:37:03 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Kaneco</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462335</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[I don't think the p2p model is necessarily the wrong choice for this type of cups, I just think the way it was implemented wasn't the best. Like sideshow said, a group phase would be great, let the players play like 3-4 games before being eliminated.

Like for example 4 groups of 4 teams = 16 teams like you planned but I feel with a group phase it would be much more interesting for the players, and since they are paying to play they want to get the most out of it.

Also the promotion, I must admit I haven't checked vanilla lately, the truth is that it lost a lot of momentum compared to tf.tv when it comes to scene news, still my bad for missing it but it still should have been promoted all over the place... On tf.tv, reddit, etf2l, everywhere goes... I just saw this today morning and I'm  pretty regular in the community forums and sites, so you can get the idea of how this wasn't properly promoted (again just trying to give my input, not saying this in a derogatory way.)

Hell, you can even ask me and I'll put a banner or something on http://comp.tf even if I know there will be no more than the regular visitors. Promotion is something this scene really needs to work on. We should have a much more  central hub at least for tournaments, where a user friendly calendar or countdown showed all the possible comps for all scenes.

Maybe even allow for the tournament registration with items, set up a item bot (there is one open source around) and get it to collect items and convert to cash to the player wallet. And a lower fee wouldn't be  bad either, but I don't think thats the main issue.... Think of it like the steam sales, is it better to have 64 players paying 1$ each or 16 players paying 4$ each? The more players play, the more numbers the streams / casts / league site / future tournaments etc will get, because it gathers a lot more attention.

PS: its about time the damn default currency is changed to €, 90% of the eu scene uses € not pounds, this is really a pet peeve of mine with the site]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:42:58 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Spike Himself</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-2/?recent=462372#post=462333</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Personally I think the p2p thing is great, TF2 just isn't the right game for it.

The entry fee is incredibly cheap for <em>teams that are sponsored</em>. You just don't see those in TF2 for all the well known reasons.

Not to mention the general mentality amongst competitive TF2 players is "do nothing get everything". Remember a few seasons ago when all ETF2L could afford to offer as prizes were headsets and the like? People actually complained because it wasn't good enough!

We all want TF2 to grow and we all want the best for our community. That's a given. Until we have to pay for it.

On the other hand, ESEA manage...]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:26:36 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by CannonFodd3r</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-1/?recent=462372#post=462332</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Kaneco</i>
		<blockquote>1st have decent promotion (a post on a obscure forum of other league in the morning of the same day shouldn't even count as promotion)</blockquote>
I announced this tournament in a VTF2 post a week ago and in two ETF2L forum posts. Any other place where you'd like to see promotion or where you think it would be more visible? Reddit maybe (although reddit reaches out to an american userbase mainly)?
<i>Quoted from Kaneco</i>
		<blockquote>2nd have a more interesting layout, by this I mean, maybe it could even work as f2p but then you should create different tiers so people from different levels can still have a chance at winning something. Or else keep them 1 tier only but dont make them p2p.</blockquote>
I actually thought the winner would not be that easy to predict in Ultiduo, compared to 6v6. An underdog could easily win against a high level player.
Ranking for other team formats might come eventually but I have no way of estimating the skill of a 2v2 Ultiduo team.
<i>Quoted from Kaneco</i>
		<blockquote>3rd these tournaments need to be casted... I can't count how many times there have been excellent 1v1 or 2v2 tournament finals on ETF2L (mge, bball, ulti) which didn't even have stv, let alone a proper cast. These gamemodes are awesome, they add a lot of variety to competitive but they need to be promoted more amongst the lower skilled playerbase so you see some decent numbers popping.</blockquote>
Well, this is a completely different topic but last time I asked the orgs to cast BBall they said it was not easy to do and you'd need two people just chatting about unrelated stuff over the game, rather than commentate what is going on. I also had the feeling those casts were not as popular but I might be wrong.[/quote]
<i>Quoted from Kaneco</i>
		<blockquote>Today morning this was posted on this forum (which btw has a really low number of potential users viewing compared to other forums / websites around), I actually didn't have nothing to do at work and checked it and saw it in time, but I imagine there's a lot of people that would play but they have no idea this is going to happen today. Still didn't register for it because how the hell am I supposed to find someone to play with withing 8-10 hours and while still at work??</blockquote>
As I mentioned above, I announced this a week ago on two places (and I did not want to spam the announcement every two days).
<i>Quoted from Kaneco</i>
		<blockquote>Don't take my criticism wrong, I love what  you're doing, just trying to give my input on this situation.</blockquote>
I don't take it on the wrong foot, don't worry. Any criticism is greatly appreciated.

What I got from the others is that a) the buy-in is too high (£2 p. player is actually not that much imo but what would be an amount that you would sign up for?) and b) the time is inconvenient (what times would be more convenient in general?)

I'll look into free tournaments too but I can only do so and so much. In fact, anyone can host a free <a href="https://esagamer.com/tournaments/community/create">community tournament</a> at any time; rules, maps and configs for BBall and Ultiduo are set up at ESA, all you need to do is press a few buttons and you are good to go.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:19:57 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by A Pubber</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-1/?recent=462372#post=462331</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from Sideshow</i>
		<blockquote>Ultiduo is popular, look at the last ETF2L tournament... the problem is your p2p cup format. I'm not gonna pay £4 to play 1/2 rounds of ultiduo in a cup with no publicity or prestige when I can get more fun ultiduoing on a night playing with friends. Make it a tiny pay-in and group stages before knockout, or even double-elim so that people actually get at least a few games even if they suck. That way you'll get many more entries, and the end prize money will actually be larger imo. Talk to casting orgs and arrange for someone to cover it, make it more of a serious competition instead of just a random 1 night cup.

If you make it open you'll get loads of signups but less of a serious feel and the top names might not be bothered. If you make it optional p2p like the 6v6 cups then almost nobody will pay but you'll get lots of signups, so I think p2p is the right option you just need to make the amount much smaller and give people more for their money i.e. casting, more games they can play even if they lose, a bit of hype and publicity</blockquote>

i agree with what that guy said]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:01:51 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Medic-kun</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-1/?recent=462372#post=462327</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[20 cet on a monday isnt the best time to host an ultiduo cup, people have 6es/HL/whatever they do to play]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:52:53 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Sideshow</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-1/?recent=462372#post=462323</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Ultiduo is popular, look at the last ETF2L tournament... the problem is your p2p cup format. I'm not gonna pay £4 to play 1/2 rounds of ultiduo in a cup with no publicity or prestige when I can get more fun ultiduoing on a night playing with friends. Make it a tiny pay-in and group stages before knockout, or even double-elim so that people actually get at least a few games even if they suck. That way you'll get many more entries, and the end prize money will actually be larger imo. Talk to casting orgs and arrange for someone to cover it, make it more of a serious competition instead of just a random 1 night cup.

If you make it open you'll get loads of signups but less of a serious feel and the top names might not be bothered. If you make it optional p2p like the 6v6 cups then almost nobody will pay but you'll get lots of signups, so I think p2p is the right option you just need to make the amount much smaller and give people more for their money i.e. casting, more games they can play even if they lose, a bit of hype and publicity]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:40:02 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by Kaneco</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-1/?recent=462372#post=462322</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from CanFo</i>
		<blockquote>The interest for an Ultiduo tournament with paid entry and money prizes is by far not as high as I anticipated. Looks like this will become an 8 slot tournament with top 4 payout afterall.</blockquote>

I think ultiduo and other game modes (ex: bball) have really high potential but you need to figure how to pull their fanbase better...

I for example wouldn't mind playing in a bball or ulti tourney, but I know Ill get my ass kicked (4pounds down the drain). 

These tourneys have enormous potential and interest but they need to: 
1st have decent promotion (a post on a obscure forum of other league in the morning of the same day shouldn't even count as promotion)
2nd have a more interesting layout, by this I mean, maybe it could even work as f2p but then you should create different tiers so people from different levels can still have a chance at winning something. Or else keep them 1 tier only but dont make them p2p.
3rd these tournaments need to be casted... I can't count how many times there have been excellent 1v1 or 2v2 tournament finals on ETF2L (mge, bball, ulti) which didn't even have stv, let alone a proper cast. These gamemodes are awesome, they add a lot of variety to competitive but they need to be promoted more amongst the lower skilled playerbase so you see some decent numbers popping.


Today morning this was posted on this forum (which btw has a really low number of potential users viewing compared to other forums / websites around), I actually didn't have nothing to do at work and checked it and saw it in time, but I imagine there's a lot of people that would play but they have no idea this is going to happen today. Still didn't register for it because how the hell am I supposed to find someone to play with withing 8-10 hours and while still at work?? 

Don't take my criticism wrong, I love what  you're doing, just trying to give my input on this situation.]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:27:28 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by trath</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-1/?recent=462372#post=462320</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[Related but unrelated, is there some ultiduo doublemix/find opponents IRC channel?]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:14:29 +0200</pubDate>
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    	    <title>Reply by SEB</title>
    	    <link>https://staging.etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-26727/page-1/?recent=462372#post=462319</link>
    	    <description><![CDATA[<i>Quoted from CanFo</i>
		<blockquote>The interest for an Ultiduo tournament with paid entry and money prizes is by far not as high as I anticipated. Looks like this will become an 8 slot tournament with top 4 payout afterall.</blockquote>

:(]]></description>
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    	    <pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:07:46 +0200</pubDate>
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